bass mpc c. 28.5mm rim, very deep cup?

[momentum]

I've done a lot of pandemic practicing, switching back and forth between a few bass mouthpieces I have every few days, looking for what might be an optimum long term setup. This is probably as much playing as I've done on a near-daily basis in my life, and I've come to the conclusion that the optimum rim size for me, from a comfort & flexibility standpoint, is around 28.5mm, give or take 0.2mm.

The only pieces I have around that rim size have small-ish cups compared to say a Schilke 60 and I feel like I'm not getting much clarity/power in the pedals with them.

So at this point I'm curious to try something with a rim around 28.5mm, with a really deep cup, to see if that can give me the best of both worlds. Or maybe a couple of pieces like this, one with an avg-sized throat and one with a bigger throat, to get a sense of how the throat affects the sound & playability. Would prefer to have more of a bowl-shaped cup than a v-shape.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm thinking about maybe trying a K&G 0E or a JK P01AK? When they say their cups are extremely deep how deep are they really compared to like a Schilke 60 or Laskey 95D?

I also play-tested a Shires mpc a while ago that I ended up returning -- it's not the exact model I want now but I sort of liked the weight of it, and could maybe see a different Shires being a decent idea -- but I don't see any measurements/specs on their website, so not sure what to look for there.

Thanks in advance for your input.

[TheBoneRanger]

Doug Elliott LB112/N/N8

Then, when you decide the super deep cup is a bad idea, you can scale it back to an L cup.

Andrew

[Elow]

I’m sure you can find your dream DE setup by emailing doug

[Burgerbob]

The Yeo isn't much larger than that in the rim. Cheap way to check it out.

[Doug Elliott]

XB 112, N, N10 is like a 59 rim on a 95D cup.

That should be deep enough but I also make a P cup. And I have made an R.
(I'm not suggesting those.)

[BGuttman]

Wasn't there a Helleberg cup bass trombone mouthpiece? I don't remember who made it if there was. Helleberg tuba mouthpieces have relatively narrow rims and deep conical cups.

FWIW, Doug put me on a LB 112/L/L8 setup (there was no XB at the time) and I moved over to an L7 backbore (don't think he still makes it) because it fit me and my King 7B better.

[Basbasun]

Have you checked Hammond design mpc?
Maybe 20 BXL?
https://karlhammonddesign.com/trombone-mouthpieces.php

[GabrielRice]

Shires 1-1/4 XD is a possibility.

So is a standard Greg Black 1-1/4G. The cup and throat are essentially the same as his 1G.

And Burgerbob is right about the Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece.

[MTbassbone]

I am curious to see what you all think about balance between the different components and whether a component being outside the norm (in terms of size) would compromise the viability of the mouthpiece. I personally feel this is true, but that is only my opinion. In my own pursuits I like the DE J cup, and was playing on a mW113 rim. I felt like this was upper limit of rim sizes before it started to feel out of balance. So I have backed off to mW112 size and might consider going to mW111 in the future. In the OP's case I am wondering if the cup size is out of balance with the selected rim size. Maybe it gets into there is a balance about balance. How meta....LOL

[BigBadandBass]

I have and been using an 01AK by Klier while I wait for my DE mouthpiece to come. 28.5 and quite deep from what I can tell on my face, I have another if you're curious.

[marccromme]

Slightly larger in rim, but very much what you seek, I think, are Yamaha Yeo, Greg Black 1 5/16 and Greg Black 1 1/4 from smaller feel to larger feel. The Yeo is cheap, an easy way to check if this is the right route for you.

[momentum]

Thanks for all the replies.

So nobody has any thoughts about the K&G 0E?
https://www.thomann.de/intl/kg_bass_tro ... plated.htm

I was looking at the Yeo on Thomann.de and a bit concerned that the cup depth is described as "semi deep". That doesn't sound very deep to me.

I have and been using an 01AK by Klier while I wait for my DE mouthpiece to come. 28.5 and quite deep from what I can tell on my face, I have another if you're curious.

And how to you like it? I am interested. But if you are in MN I'd rather order from Klier and avoid customs & long shipping times (am in DE right now).

XB 112, N, N10 is like a 59 rim on a 95D cup.

Doug I have one of your pieces, I think it's XB 113, L, L10. It's been my mainstay piece for like 90% of my playing the last few years. But now I definitely want to try a deeper cup & perhaps both larger & smaller shanks. I am in Germany right now & don't want to deal with international shipping & customs fees, but next time I'll be in the States (maybe late Summer?) maybe I'll order what you suggest in advance.

Shires 1-1/4 XD is a possibility.

So is a standard Greg Black 1-1/4G. The cup and throat are essentially the same as his 1G.

And Burgerbob is right about the Yamaha Yeo mouthpiece.

Cool, thanks

Have you checked Hammond design mpc?
Maybe 20 BXL?
https://karlhammonddesign.com/trombone-mouthpieces.php

Hadn't thought about it, but good suggestions. My tenor piece (not that play tenor these days) is a Hammond 10ML.

Slightly larger in rim, but very much what you seek, I think, are Yamaha Yeo, Greg Black 1 5/16 and Greg Black 1 1/4 from smaller feel to larger feel. The Yeo is cheap, an easy way to check if this is the right route for you.

Very legal and very cool.

I appreciate all of your suggestions!

[Burgerbob]

I was looking at the Yeo on Thomann.de and a bit concerned that the cup depth is described as "semi deep". That doesn't sound very deep to me.

It's deep. Give it a try, find one used.

[BigBadandBass]

And how to you like it? I am interested. But if you are in MN I'd rather order from Klier and avoid customs & long shipping times (am in DE right now).

I like it a fair bit! My first bass piece was a Yeo (don't judge me) and I've always played on big and deep pieces. But I like the Klier more than any other piece I've played so far, the Yeo is nice but it played like a bowl to me, not a Mouthpiece. I played a Griego 1 for a bit, rim was weird, then it was a Giddings Don Harwood, next was a karif, again, weird rim. If you can find a cheap Klier I see no reason to not try. They're decent pieces and it works great with my B&S Sarastro, the german schilke if you will, cheap and consistent. I'm actually getting a L cup piece from Doug here whenever I get it, I'll let you know how they compare

[FOSSIL]

I've been messing around with mouthpieces for more than 50 years and been involved with design projects for various people. Some things have become clear over the years whilst others remain enigmatic but there is one great truth which once admitted will save the player a lot of time and money.

A mouthpiece can never fill a gap in the player's ability.

Consider that carefully. You cannot buy a high register or a low register. You cannot buy a great sound. You have to find a mouthpiece that first of all sonically matches the trombone with which it is used....choose one that gets out of your way and lets you be you as easily as possible.
Choose a mouthpiece with a bias in one direction and you have to work ten times harder in the other direction. Super deep cups with smaller rims are not the norm simply because they are not good all round mouthpieces. The vast majority of pros use very mainstream equipment. Take the hint.

Chris

[MTbassbone]

Super deep cups with smaller rims are not the norm simply because they are not good all round mouthpieces.
Chris

Chris, well said. What is your take on small to moderately sized rims with shallower cups? For example a Bach 1.25 rim on a Bach 1.5 cup.

[FOSSIL]

Super deep cups with smaller rims are not the norm simply because they are not good all round mouthpieces.
Chris

Chris, well said. What is your take on small to moderately sized rims with shallower cups? For example a Bach 1.25 rim on a Bach 1.5 cup.

Funny you should say that, I'm using a 110 size rim on a 1.5ish mouthpiece these days...it's a one off Herrick piece that is truly wonderful ...tried it quite by chance.
I think some mouthpieces are a little too deep for their rim size and push the player toward a dull foggy sound....and it seems that many players are fooled into thinking they have found their 'dark' sound.

Chris

[sirisobhakya]

I was looking at the Yeo on Thomann.de and a bit concerned that the cup depth is described as "semi deep". That doesn't sound very deep to me.

It is Yamaha’s wording. Placed side-by-side with something “normal” like Bach 1 1/2 G you will see that it is very deep.

[BigBadandBass]

I can assure you that "semi-deep" is in comparison to your average sized bathtub or comparable sink when it comes to the Yeo.

[JMudge]

Pickett might be an option.......

1.6 or 1.5 rim depending on the profile. “D” cup.

J

[momentum]

Thanks again to all who suggested particular models!

I ordered 3 to try from Musik Bertram in Freiburg. If you e-mail them & ask they will deliver and let you try them out for a few days, and you can send back what you don't want, for a nominal return/cleaning fee (on top of the price of whatever ones you keep, of course). At least this is the case in Germany, dunno if it's EU-wide or not... For anyone in this locality wanting to try out some mouthpieces. Their website is not as friendly as say Thomann but they have an accessory list as a PDF that lists the brands they carry & their prices, although it does not say which models they have of those brands (you have to ask them).

So I tried the following:
-Hammond 20 BXL
-Ultimate Brass G1 (per the Musik Bertram rep's suggestion)
-Greg Black 1 1/4 G Regular

(1) I liked the Hammond a lot, but it wasn't necessarily what I was looking to add to my collection. It plays quite similarly to the DE XB113 L L10 that I already have, which has been my main piece the last few years. The Hammond has a slightly smaller rim and a slightly deeper cup than my DE. The cup shape is similar-looking to the cup shape of the DE, slightly V-ish to my eyes, at least as compared to the other two I tested, and the piece overall has kind of similar mass... Didn't feel like a radically deep cup or anything, well-balanced (which is nice but again not necessarily what I wanted here)... Flexibility was particularly easy.

(2) The Ultimate Brass was kind of milquetoast. I don't know much about the brand - it felt "loud" and kind of harder to control, maybe it's geared more for orchestral players. I couldn't really get an amazing/or super-stabilized sound with it for some reason, which is really important for most of the playing I do these days (playing loud isn't). So I kind of quickly discarded.

(3) The Greg Black I found super interesting and this is what I have kept. As @GabrielRice & @marccromme suggested, for its rim size the cup is clearly quite large. It is also more bowl-shaped than the other two. To me it plays a bit fatter & easier below the staff than my DE setup in spite of having a smaller rim, with comparable ease in the middle & high registers, and a nice core to the sound that persists into the upper-middle range at least.

The 'cost' seems to be that the GB wants to be a hair louder & requires slightly more effort than my DE, but still well within what I'm willing to deal with. I'm sure I'll be switching back & forth between the two depending on the situation & how my face feels.

Thanks again to all who provided input, it was nice to check out the difference that cup size & shape in particular make against basically the same rim.

[marccromme]

Great to know it did work out well for you. I am pretty happy for my GB 1.25 too. ..