Trombone vs Euphonium mouthpieces

[hyperbolica]

I'm curious about what mouthpieces doublers use on bone and euph. In particular what 547 bone and what mouthpiece, and then what euph mouthpiece?

For example, I play 88h with a de 104G8, and I bounce around on Euph, but try to play 2G, thinking of 3G. I've been trying 52e2, but the ID is too small. I feel 2G might be too big. I'm just getting to the point where I can play valves in public without embarassing myself too badly, and I think I need a more appropriate mouthpiece. Don't want to get a DE setup until I'm pretty zoned in on what works for me. A lot of people say DW 4a or 4al, but that seems a little small. I'd like to stick with the 104 rim ID size to match my tenor playing, which leads me to the 3G.

So what combos do you play?

[Elow]

I use a wick 4abl on both, probably not the best but oh well. For some reason i’m picky about bass mouthpieces but that’s it. Anything in the 5-3 range is good for tenor/euph for me

[Kdanielsen]

I play an edwards tenor and Griego mouthpiece. For euph, I use a Wick SM mouthpiece with a similar rim diameter. The SM mouthpieces are really great and work better for me on euph than any tenor trombone mouthpiece. Really worth a try.

[Doug Elliott]

"Don't want to get a DE setup until I'm pretty zoned in on what works for me."
Huh?

EUPH 104 for the same feel you already use.
EUPH H*, I*, or J* cup
H8*, I8*, or J8* shank

I usually use EUPH 104, J*, J8* for the rare occasions I have to play euphonium.

[marccromme]

For me an euph mouthpiece should be a bit larger in cup volumen and backbore than my large bore tenor mouthpiece.

That seem to give the best tone production on my euph, emphasizing the tonal differences. On tenor its a Laskey 59D or a Schilke synphonic 52D*, on euph a Yamaha 58 small bass piece. A Schilke symphonic 53D* also works fine for me.

I do prefer a mouthpiece with a cup over a funnel shaped one on euph.

I pick what I think sings best with the instrument and accept smaller variations in rim size as pert of the change.

Your experience might dictate otherwise....

[hyperbolica]

"Don't want to get a DE setup until I'm pretty zoned in on what works for me."
Huh?

Yeah, stupid, I agree, but I had a Euph setup in the past that really didn't do much for me. I had stopped playing euph for a while, and I'm further along now. Your stuff is great on trombone - all I play - I've got 5 or 6, but I haven't been able to make peace with your stuff on tuba or euph. I can make $70 mistakes. It's harder to make $250 mistakes.

For me an euph mouthpiece should be a bit larger in cup volumen and backbore than my large bore tenor mouthpiece.

I agree about the cup and backbore, but I do like the V shaped Helleberg tuba mouthpieces for their efficiency of sound. I might try the DW Steven Meade for that reason.

Thanks for the input.

[marccromme]

For me an euph mouthpiece should be a bit larger in cup volumen and backbore than my large bore tenor mouthpiece.

I agree about the cup and backbore, but I do like the V shaped Helleberg tuba mouthpieces for their efficiency of sound. I might try the DW Steven Meade for that reason.

Thanks for the input.

FWIW, I use a DW SM 4 with fine results too, it has a deeper cup than many trombone mouthpieces, but still has a marked change from cup to throat. Works really fine too, I just prefer the Yamaha 58L. Go for it and try yourself.

And it works much better than the DW 52 E2, IMHO, which is an odd piece.

[ajeasley]

I'm far more of a euphonium than trombone player, so my mileage may vary.

When I first started playing trombone, I used the same piece on both horns (initially a Bach 4G and later a Wick Heritage 4AL). The importance of having a good sense of the tonal difference between euphonium and trombone can't be overstated. My professor at the time gave me the kind backhanded compliment that, were it not for my slide technique needing a LOT of work, I could pass for a serviceable second player in a wind ensemble or orchestral setting.

Here we are a decade later and I have found myself playing a lot more trombone in the last year. Nowadays I use different setups for both horns (Griego-Bowman BB1 on euphonium and a Schilke 51 on trombone). I landed on these pieces because I think they give me the sound I'm looking for out of each instrument (euph is a Shires Q41 and bone is a Yamaha 882OR or a Shires Alessi on loan from the Army). I don't find the transition between rim shapes to be too jarring on the face because I try to practice both regularly, and I have to rethink sound concept and the way I put air into the instruments regardless.

My hot take is that I think most mouthpieces that would be considered appropriate for bass trombone are way too big for euphonium. With that said, there are plenty of players out there playing huge equipment that sound great - to each there own!

[MrHCinDE]

Back when I was mainly playing euph and had just started with learning trom, I used a ‘classic’ DW 4AL on the (Besson Sovereign) euph and my 88h. I found it worked well on the euph, mainly for British style brass band playing, the cup depth and shape was a good balance between big sound and endurance. For the first steps in trombone, I quite liked having the constant of a single mouthpiece for both. I still use the 4AL occasionally on large bore tenor trom, say for playing hymn tunes/carols in a small group, but generally prefer my Rath L5 (roughly Bach 5G-sized) for its versatility of sound. For euph I don’t have the Sovereign anymore and have changed to a DW 4AM on my B&H Imperial euph, it’s similar to the 4AL with a smaller shank. I have no major problems swapping mid-gig from the euph with 4AM to trom with the Rath L5 or Rath S4.5. That’s mainly a question of practicing the changes, I spent a fair bit of lockdown time working on it recently.

I tried a 2G back on euph back in the day but there’s no way I was getting through a full brass band concert programme in a heavy-blowing band on that setup. Thinking about it, pedals are pretty rare in any euph parts I’ve played, only for special effects/cadenzas. The 2G would have probably been ok for some other ensembles but brass band was my main focus at the time. I found that euph with 4AL worked well for the rare symphony orchestra parts I came across (Planets, Fantasia on British Sea Songs etc.).

Whilst I may occasionally use the 4AL on trombone, I tried a 5G and the L5 on euph and they sounded awful. They were way too bright for my taste and actually felt like harder work to play than the 4AL. I gave the 5G a decent run of practice but in the end it was inferior to the 4AL on euph in every way (with my chops, everyone’s different!).

If I ever get back into ‘serious’ euph playing, I’d like to try the DW SM mouthpieces, I know many euph players who swear by them.

[hyperbolica]

Ok, I ordered a DW SM3U from Hickeys. We'll see how that goes. It's the same rim ID as my tenor bone. As long as the cup depth and backbore are set up for euph, I should be good with this.

It takes a long time to get the right euph sound in your ear. I'm not trying to match my trombone, I'm trying to see how much resonance I can get from the euph. Given the choices I have available, I could tell the range should be between the 52e2 and 2g, although the Ferguson V is a lot of fun.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. The DW pieces have come up more than once.

[ajeasley]

The Steven Mead mouthpieces are a great euphonium choice - this is only my opinion/experience, but for me they blow a lot easier than the specs would indicate and work better than a comparably sized standard Denis Wick.

I'd consider trying one out again, but I recently bought a European shank horn and don't want to repurchase every piece I've ever played!

[deanmccarty]

I play an Elliott 100/G8 for my large tenor playing. For euphonium I go a little wider and quite a bit deeper. I use an Elliott euphonium series 102/J. On my Willson, for me, it’s the perfect pairing.

[tbonesullivan]

I played with an incredible euph player using a Bach 6 1/2 AL. Sounded awesome. Use what works for you.

For me, I use a Wick 4AL. Previously used a Hammond 11L, but I like the feel of the wick a bit more on the euph.

[DJWPE]

On Euph I play Warburton Demondrae. On large tenor, I play a Warburton 7ST modified with the Demondrae rim. Both are ~1.03”.

Don Winston

[hyperbolica]

... Use what works for you...

I know people revered Sam Burtis for saying stuff like this, but it has to be the least helpful answer you can give. It assumes that you already know everything, have access to everything, or just don't care. The answer just leaves you exactly where you started with no new information.

The thing is that everything I've tried kinda works, I certainly don't know everything, and if I had infinite funds, I would have access to infinite mouthpieces, but alas, I don't have that either.

The useful responses have been:
- tbone and euph require different mouthpieces
- euph generally smaller diameter than bass bone
- euph generally deeper and larger back bore than equivalent large tenor
- Denis Wicks are a good place to start looking
- DW Steven Meade are a safe bet

My DW SM3 should arrive this week. I'll update as to whether "it works" at that point.

[ithinknot]

... Use what works for you...

I know people revered Sam Burtis for saying stuff like this, but it has to be the least helpful answer you can give. It assumes that you already know everything, have access to everything, or just don't care. The answer just leaves you exactly where you started with no new information.

In marginal fairness, this sort of 'YMMV Daily Affirmation' does offer some small reassurance to those who worry that they 'should' be using something particular, whether because it's a 'standard'/peer pressure/misinformed teacher/general misconceptions... but obviously that doesn't apply here.

Hope the DW SM works out!

For those using larger rim diameters on euph than they do on tenor, it would be interesting to know whether that's just because deeper cup/larger backbore has traditionally been easier to find on the larger standard offerings, or whether they find specific benefit from the larger diameter. (I'm guessing the former, but...)

[ajeasley]

Mouthpiece selection in the world of euphonium tends to fall into two archetypical camps:

• Pieces with a deep cup (too deep for trombone) and a rim size somewhere between a 5G and 6.5AL. This concept is best personified by Dr. Brian Bowman and the majority of American premier service band players and the most commonly played specific setup is either a Schilke 51D or The Bowman BB1 (made by Griego nowadays)

• Pieces that are or are based on the Denis Wick 4AL or 3AL. The traditional archetype for this type of sound is a British brass band soloist (Steven Mead, David Childs, etc.)

I used to fall in the latter camp, and switched to the former around 5 or 6 years ago. For most manufacturers, particularly your mainstream ones, cup depth/backbore and rim width move in a correlative way. What's interesting is that there does seem to be something of a sweet spot for most players in terms of cup depth regardless. A Schilke 51D and an SM3 are on opposite ends of the spectrum in rim size and bore, but are in the ballpark of an Elliott I and J cup, respectively.

Now with that said, I'll say again that mileage may vary and the archetypes described above are an overly broad generalization. I tried using roughly the same rim size on everything for awhile (a Hammond 12 - S on small tenor, ML on large tenor, and XL on euphonium). I found that keeping the same rim size was very helpful between large and small tenor but less so on euphonium because everything after the rim is so different. Based on that, I went to what worked best for me on each instrument and sort it out as best as I can (the Hammond ML was a little too bright relative to my section in wind band, and the BB1 just works for me on euphonium in spite of its features that I don't like as much).

[BGuttman]

I have mentioned this before. I like a "tenor tuba" sound from my Euph, so I tried larger mouthpieces. I had a Warburton 3/3B setup (sorta 1 1/4G) that didn't really sing on my bass trombone, but when I put it in my Euph (Conn 19I) magic happened, Love it to death on Euph. Not so much on bass trombone.

[hyperbolica]

...
For those using larger rim diameters on euph than they do on tenor, it would be interesting to know whether that's just because deeper cup/larger backbore has traditionally been easier to find on the larger standard offerings, or whether they find specific benefit from the larger diameter. (I'm guessing the former, but...)

To be honest, I've owned a euphonium for probably 3 years, and I've never played it in public or even with any other instruments. I guess you could say I just use it as therapy. Initially it was just to learn valves, then it became a way to enjoy playing brass without making my shoulder problems any worse. So as far as a preconceived notions of what the instrument should sound like, I really don't have any. My notion of the euphonium has been of people with insane finger skills, and I don't aspire to that. I just want to make a nice sound, and want it to resonate, and hopefully not mess up my tbone chops.

I've been using 2g, Ferguson V (1.5g) and 52e2. Only the 52e2 is smaller diameter than my tenor piece. It feels like a more resonant sound should get a bigger mouthpiece, but these have been the options I've had in that size range. I might have to adjust the sound again if I ever start playing euph in a group. That doesn't seem likely, though, because now I associate playing euphonium with reclining in a big soft chair - not a very brass appropriate posture. Plus, taking my LazyBoy to rehearsal every week would get old fast, I'm sure.

[Kdanielsen]

I actually just played some euph a few minutes ago to test some mouthpieces and want to pass on what i found:

My goal was to pick between a sm3 and a sm3u. The u is the newer (and heavier) Ultra version.

The sm3 felt less slotted to me, which is the main thing I liked. It spoke quicker, and was easier to move between notes/partials. It was just easier to move around, and less of a change from the feel of playing trombone.

The sm3u was more focused with a slightly clearer tone, but harder to be flexible or expressive.

The sm3 seemed more in tune. It also had a much better compensating range. Low (below the staff) E down to low C was clearer and louder. The pedals are epic.

High ranger was about the same. Both fine up to high F. Again, I liked the flexibility of the sm3 up high better.

Sm3 better for very loud (all those repeated Gs in planets for example). Basically a tie for very soft.

Hope this helps someone. Bottom line is the sm3 felt less slotted and thus more capable of a wider variety of dynamics, articulations, and flexibility. I like this because, as a trombonist, euph feels very stuffy and inflexible to me. Sm3 just makes things easier.

[hyperbolica]

I actually just played some euph a few minutes ago to test some mouthpieces and want to pass on what i found:
...

Hope this helps someone. Bottom line is the sm3 felt less slotted and thus more capable of a wider variety of dynamics, articulations, and flexibility. I like this because, as a trombonist, euph feels very stuffy and inflexible to me. Sm3 just makes things easier.

Yeah, wow, that's the kind of info I was hoping for. I ordered the U, might have to go back and get the sm3. I like the clearer sound, but I also like the added flexibility. I guess flexibility is probably more important to me. The U also has a bigger throat, I think, and I typically like smaller throats.

For some reason "stuffy" to me just means more resistance, and I deal with that by not trying to push so much air. So that part of it doesn't bother me as much.

I live in the town where Mouthpiece Express is, and believe it or not, I've never gone over there to buy a mouthpiece. I get work done on eBay horns there, mostly. Maybe I should visit and get a mouthpiece this time.

[Kdanielsen]

I actually just played some euph a few minutes ago to test some mouthpieces and want to pass on what i found:
...

Hope this helps someone. Bottom line is the sm3 felt less slotted and thus more capable of a wider variety of dynamics, articulations, and flexibility. I like this because, as a trombonist, euph feels very stuffy and inflexible to me. Sm3 just makes things easier.

Yeah, wow, that's the kind of info I was hoping for. I ordered the U, might have to go back and get the sm3. I like the clearer sound, but I also like the added flexibility. I guess flexibility is probably more important to me. The U also has a bigger throat, I think, and I typically like smaller throats.

For some reason "stuffy" to me just means more resistance, and I deal with that by not trying to push so much air. So that part of it doesn't bother me as much.

I live in the town where Mouthpiece Express is, and believe it or not, I've never gone over there to buy a mouthpiece. I get work done on eBay horns there, mostly. Maybe I should visit and get a mouthpiece this time.

Bummer! I just got the sm3 in the mail yesterday. Ironically, that was the mouthpiece I had settled on when I quit euph and switched to trombone after my first year of conservatory. Luckily they let me keep the scholarship as long as i continued to play euph in the wind ensemble.

[btone]

+1 for the Wick 4al. Great euphonium mouthpiece!

[tbonesullivan]

+1 for the Wick 4al. Great euphonium mouthpiece!

It is a great mouthpiece. One of the "standard" pieces, along with the Schilke 51D, that you often hear about. I post often at Dave Werden's forum, and there have been threads about how people keep going back to that Wick 4AL.

[btone]

I played one all the way through college on euphonium. Switched to a Schilke 51 after college on my trombone and used a 51d on euphonium for years, but lately I've gone back to the 4al on my Besson euphonium; the same one I bought in 1973 and played in college. I think it's one of the most comfortable rims ever. I recently used the 4bl on a "Planets" performance and found it a good choice for that.

[hyperbolica]

Ok, I got both the sm3 and the sm3u. They both make it clear that mouthpieces specifically intended for the euphonium are not the same as trombone mouthpieces. The sm3 is very light and the sound is more brilliant. The sm3 left the muscle between my lower lip and chin getting worn out quickly, which was odd. The U is a heavier blank, the sound is weightier, darker, broader. Even the high range feels more solid and secure. To me the U is more euphonium-ish sound. They are both great mouthpieces, very comfortable rims. It probably wouldn't take long to practice either of these into submission.

I did get more "air balls" on the U - notes where all I get is air without any tone. I got a lot of these when I was trying to use bass bone mouthpieces on euph. Fewer with the sm3. But overall, I think the sound on the U is more solid, dense and convincing.

When I switch between either of these and a trombone mouthpiece in the euphonium you can really feel why the Euph needs a deeper cup with the same rim diameter compared to the trombone.

Both the sm3 and sm3u immediately felt like home, but I think the U will be my go to just because of the denser sound.

Thanks to those whose advice got me looking in this direction.

[hyperbolica]

At first I played real book tunes mainly in the staff and the U mouthpiece felt best. But when playing something a bit more athletic and higher range, the sm3 showed its colors. So again, a short term shootout will become a longer term comparison. I'll keep both of these next to my easy chair and swap them for different kinds of playing. Both winners, both very comfortable, one heavy one light.


BTW did you know that Mouthpiece Express sells slightly used mouthpieces for about $20 off?

[hyperbolica]

Just to complicate this issue, I bought a new to me King 2280. Doesn't look like much but it plays great. The big problem is that all of my mouthpieces bottom out in the receiver. I might eventually have the receiver replaced, but for now I think I'll put a wrap of tape on the shank. I understand 2280 s are prone to this.

[BGuttman]

Interesting. I have a Conn 19I, which is the same horn with a Conn label. Haven't had any mouthpieces bottom out (although I haven't tried any long shank Schilke's or my Conn 4CL (has a rather long shank). I use a Warburton 2 piece with a 3B shank and it works great (about 1 1/4 G sized).

[Molefsky]

Griego Alessi 1C on tenor.
Wick SM2U (Ultra) on euph.

[Pezza]

Giddings & Webster, GW103, YEP842 euph and King 5B. Between a 2G & 3G
G&W Chinook, Bach 50 bass. 1Gish
Kelly 1.5G, Bach 50 & King 5B bass
G&W Boreas, Yamaha & soverign large bore tenor. 5Gish
G&W Euros, Bach 36 med bore tenor. 5Gish
Kelly 6.5al, Bach 12 small bore tenor

I have an allergy, so need to use stainless or plastic!

[Matt K]

I use an Elliott Euph 104N/Euph K/K8 but if I were to seriously get into euphonium again, I'd probably use a SYM or Euph H. I think the K is just a little too deep for what I play on euph which is admittedly vanishingly small. I did play for about ~20-30% of the Utah Wind Symphony's seasons for a few years, subbing for their co-principal. Despite being 2nd chair, most of the stuff that came across my stand was pretty high. Lots of flute doubling... Festival Overture is the one that immediately comes to mind. I just did a lot better on a shallower cup for that type of playing.

[mbtrombone]

I went through a fairly big mpc search during the most closed down part of the pandemic, and settled on the following:

Bass Trombone: Hammond 21BXL
Euphonium: Denis Wick 4.5AL
Large Tenor Trombone: Bach 3G or Schilke Symphony 5.3M (still sorting that one out)
Small shank anything: Schilke 51D (used mostly with small shank Euphonium or medium tenor)

[Finetales]

I've been using a gold Denis Wick SM4 on euph since middle school. I've briefly flirted with some other mouthpieces but always came back. Does everything I need it to, and most importantly gets the sound I want it to.

Most of my tenor pieces are about the same size rim diameter. Compared to the SM4's 1.024mm diameter, my Warburton 8S and Hammond 11M small shank mouthpieces are 1.02. Meanwhile, my large shank pieces are 1.01 (12ML) and 1.03 (Warburton 7ST). I really love the bigger 7ST for orchestral tenor, but my 88H likes my 12ML more so I use that. Feels just a bit small! One of these days I need to pick up an 11ML and 10ML to try.

[ssking2b]

Marcinkiewicz Byron Peebles Model on large bore tenor
Customized Bach 11C on small bore tenor
Michael Parker "Lance LaDuke" model on euphonium

[Richard3rd]

There's been tons of comparisons of euph mouthpieces on dwerden.com. Most players were either Wick 4AL or SM players. To my ears most are playing too big a diameter. That loses the focus and causes too much spread in tone. One of the mouthpieces that came up a winner was the Alliance DC series. DC is David Childs. Based on a friend's recommendation I got one, the DC4. What an eye opening experience. I've got just about every Bach, Schilke, Blessing, King, Stork, Curry or vintage mouthpiece to compare and the DC4 just kills it. Slightly more open in bore than the Wick AL, but much more core and much more overtones. Adapting has taken only a week and I've loving it.

Now for trombone. I play a King 1130 marching trombone for jazz. Once I adapted to the Alliance on euph, nothing seemed right on the King. So I went back to the Blessing 6 1/2AL mouthpiece. Solved that issue. Switching back and forth is no problem now. the Blessing is more open than the King 12C, Stork 1,2 and 3 and others that I had been using. The diameter is just right for me and the sound and slotting are right on. I think this pair is going to be the answer for me.

[harrisonreed]

DE SB106J for euph. Works great

[hyperbolica]

Where do you get the Alliance mouthpieces in the US? Dillons is out of stock.

[pompatus]

I have an Alliance E3A I’d sell, if you’re interested. Brand new in its original pouch and box

[hyperbolica]

I have an Alliance E3A I’d sell, if you’re interested. Brand new in its original pouch and box

I'm not sure what that is. I'm looking for a DC2.

[hyperbolica]

DE SB106J for euph. Works great

I've got a EUPH 104J9, and it seems nice, but I want to try one of these Alliance things...

[pompatus]

I have an Alliance E3A I’d sell, if you’re interested. Brand new in its original pouch and box

I'm not sure what that is. I'm looking for a DC2.

The E3A is 4G-ish in size. I believe it’s the series they used to ship with Besson euphoniums prior to the release of the DC series.

Here’s a link to pics, if anyone is interested:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uoefqzthmofo ... SPP2a?dl=0

[Richard3rd]

When I bought my Alliance from Dillons, they had 2-3 DC4's and none of the other sizes. I would call them and ask about when they will get more in. Their price is a bargain.