Wick 12cs or Mt Vernon 11c?

[Robertstrauch]

I shall re-word the question. If you have played jazz on Mt Vernon 11C and/or Denis Wick 12CS on a small bore trombone, please describe the tone quality you produced in comparison to Carl Fontana. Thank you.


Old question:
Going for a Carl Fontana vibe. Have Mt Vernon 11C but want opinions on the Denis Wick 12cs. I am an average jazz player but can doodle around. Working on my solo sound.

I already read the other posts about picking mouthpieces. I am looking for opinions on these two, not for advice, so no lectures please. Thank you.

[Vegasbound]

Carl famously had a bag of 100 ‘magic’ mouthpieces so use what works for you

[Robertstrauch]

Thank you for the stock answer. Many work for me. I don’t play professionally so this is for fun. My 11c fell on cement and rim is marred but playable. Just thinking about buying something different. I am looking for opinions on 2 mouthpieces from those who have played jazz with them.

[Robertstrauch]

Carl famously had a bag of 100 ‘magic’ mouthpieces so use what works for you

Can’t afford 100 mouthpieces. Want to buy one after I chat with those who have played it.

[OneTon]

I play on a Mount Vernon 11C that was given to me. I have another one that is junk, for me. I have talked with Al Hermann at the Telluride Jazz Festival in Telluride, Colorado. There are youtube clips of Al and Carl on youtube. I have also been in email contact with Al Kay and Ian McDougall in the past. Al Kay was one of the designers on the YSL-697 and YSL-897 trombones. He indicated several mouthpieces that would work and that many of the mouthpieces were variations on the Bach 11C. Ian McDougall was playing a Bach 11C that he said was a production aberration and got damaged. Marcinkiewicz copied McDougall's mouthpiece and it is available under the artist's name at a reasonable price. Ian still plays on that mouthpiece. He also said to get one mouthpiece, whatever it is, and stick with it.

Al Hermann was playing on a 0.500 bore Williams, I think. I have seen pictures of Carl Fontana playing Yamaha and other trombones. There was legend out there that Carl had a Frankenbone with a Bach 0.490 slide on it. That was hearsay to me. Carl and Al were together learning how to play trombone in New Orleans when they were young. Carl Fontana was probably going to sound like Carl Fontana no matter what he played on. I will go with a 0.500 bore if I am trying to emulate him. But I digress.

Just before the good Mount Vernon 11C was given to me and when I was emailing Ian McDougall, I was playing on the current production Bach 11C mouthpieces. I think their consistency was improved. I have described the difference between the Bach and Mount Vernon mouthpieces in terms of what they would look like on an oscilloscope. Al Hermann had a phD in physics and retired from teaching physics at the University of Colorado in Boulder. He and I related well. No body else really relates to that description.

The Mount Vernon 11C had richer, more colorful harmonics and liked playing high notes. The Bach 11C had a stronger fundamental and very slightly richer sound for low G and below than the Mount Vernon 11C. The differences were incrementally small. Were the differences of showstopper magnitude? Probably not when we consider the range where we make our bread and butter on trombone.

I don't know what Denis Wick's 12CS mouthpiece is. The literature seems to indicate that the 12CS has a wider rim. I like Schilke 47 mouthpieces. Al Kay said that Schilke 47 mouthpieces would work. They are consistent. I prefer the rim on the Mount Vernon 11C and Bach 11C to the wider/flatter rim on the Schilke 47. I feel like I get better feedback from the narrower rim and don't press as hard. It may be counterintuitive since I have thicker lips. If something happened to my Mount Vernon 11C, I would probably go with Marcinkiewicz's McDougall model, a Bach 11C, or call Marcinkiewicz and ask him what has that is closest to the Mount Vernon 11C. I have purchased other products from Marcinkiewicz and was happy with them.

[Robertstrauch]

Thank you for the rundown. Someone will probably get mad at this but I think his fuzzy sound comes from playing sotto voce and crowding up on the microphone….

The Mt Vernon has character to the sound. I hope someone talks about the 12cs here.

[Posaunus]

Not sure whose "fuzzy sound" you are referring to.

I am also a fan of Marcinkiewicz mouthpieces. I like playing them more than I do Bach pieces - they just feel right on my chops.

My favorites are:
• Marcinkiewicz ET3 C Loper - cf. Mt Vernon Bach 11C
• Marcinkiewicz ET4 Lloyd Ulyate - Copy of Lloyd's [opened-throat] Bach 7C

There is also
• Marcinkiewicz 11 - cf. Bach 11C? - but perhaps a little larger - more like Bach 6½A (?)

I like all these better than the Denis Wick 12CS (a fine mouthpiece; just not as good for me as the Marcinkiewiczes)

[blast]

When I decided to get serious about small tenor during lockdown, I bought 7 or 8 Mt Vernon 11c pieces...each one was different...very different. I plugged in the one I liked best and there it stays. Get one that works and stick with it.

[Robertstrauch]

Referring to Carl Fontana’s mellow fuzzy sound.

No need to stick to one mouthpiece…I play for fun and stress relief. I even practice incorrectly sometimes because I feel like it. My only gig is a solo in church once a month and sometimes I sing or play a trumpet.

If I fall in love with a mouthpiece I will stick with it but I doubt one mouthpiece will give me both the jazz sound I like and symphonic sound I use to demonstrate things to my young band students. I don’t want them to sound like Fontana in concert band…

For my pea shooter I like Yamaha 48 for classical sound. On a normal bore or on baritone I like Schilke 51D, which I highly recommend as a step up mouthpiece for my students. On my large bore which I no longer play and want to trade because it wears me out now, i like a Bach 3G for a fat sound.

[Fidbone]

Andy Baker who's on this forum plays a 12CS and loves it!

[Robertstrauch]

Andy Baker who's on this forum plays a 12CS and loves it!

Would love to hear from him about the timbre and what he uses…

[JacobsianApostle]

When I think of Carl Fontana I think of everything sounding totally effortless. Since there isn’t a huge size difference between those two mouthpieces, and the Denis Wick should be easy enough to find and demo at a Music Store, I’d advocate to try your best Carl Fontana impression on both and go with what feels easiest.

[Robertstrauch]

Yes I remember the days when I could go to a music store and try mouthpieces…

[OneTon]

Yes I remember the days when I could go to a music store and try mouthpieces…

Warby Parker is working on a virtual trial mouthpiece app. It’s due out next quarter. PM me for details regarding the beta testers group.

[Robertstrauch]

App sounds cool but I am baffled how the zeros and ones can account for human physiology differences. How would an app collect my playing technique and know what sound would come out??? Hmmmm…. I guess it is no different from asking a person…

[Robertstrauch]

Anyway I thought I could find a cheap 12cs to try but I can’t so I am dropping the idea. Thank you for the responses.

[ssking2b]

The12CS is smaller than the Bach 11c. The similar size in Dennis week Mouthpieces is 10CS. Personally I think you’re better off with a Charlie Loper Marcinkiewicz model. That was based on a Mount Vernon 11 C with the throat opened by Pepe in NYC. It’s a great mouthpiece.

[Posaunus]

Anyway I thought I could find a cheap 12cs to try but I can’t so I am dropping the idea. Thank you for the responses.

If your only criterion is "cheap" you may not find what you want. New Denis Wick mouthpieces are not terribly expensive; others suggested in this thread will probably cost you at least as much (though many of us think it's worth the expense to get something better). [I also like the Marcinkiewicz ET3 C Loper.]

In any case, you will probably never sound like Carl Fontana.

[OneTon]

Robert,

Many of the members here aspire to sound like a specific player. We play lead sheets and transcribed solos around a circle of fifths. We find playing venues and attempt to get our equipment in the ballpark. We may “fight” some equipment.

We listen. Then one day we turn a corner and discover a sound that is ours and perhaps a lot like our idol’s sound. And then it may not be as critical what horn we play on, within reason.

Hang in there. Whatever is in our mind’s ear has a good chance of coming out of the end of our horns.

[jbeatenbough]

I wouldn't claim to sound like Carl, but I do find the DW 12cs to be more comfortable for me on a small bore (and I've tried dozens of mouthpieces). I wouldn't limit yourself to just those two choices. But remember, there is so much more that goes into how you sound than just a mouthpiece... best of luck!