Small Bore for a Bass Trombonist

[HHamby]

Hello all!

This is trying to serve as my second post as I’m finally getting around to getting verified or vetted or whatever it’s called but also as a genuine question, finding a small bore mouthpiece that feels comfortable as a bass trombonist. How do people do it?

Right now my mouthpiece lineup is all Hammonds, JF2A, 13M, 11MXL, and 21BXL. I am very happy with all of them from a sound standpoint and with the JF2A, 11MXL, and 21BXL from a feel standpoint. The 13M is exactly the right sound, but man does it feel uncomfortable for the first hour of picking up the horn.

Basically, before I start a buying spree, have people had success with sticking with cup depth and getting a different rim size? I was thinking about just getting an 11M for that reason but wanted to hear others opinions on it.

Thanks so much and glad to (hopefully) be participating in the TromboneChat after a long time of just “lurking”!

[Burgerbob]

Doug Elliot. Get just the right cup size and a rim you can use.

[EriKon]

Yes, Doug Elliott is the way to go. Doing that (using the same rim and having different cups) by myself and works way better than everything I had before. Just need to switch for bass trombone as well but will do that soon.

[hyperbolica]

...have people had success with sticking with cup depth and getting a different rim size? I was thinking about just getting an 11M for that reason but wanted to hear others opinions on it....

That's backwards from what's been my experience. Get a cup to match the sound of the horn and a rim to fit your face. I've also tried to reconcile bass and tenor. I wind up playing Doug Elliott stuff. On bass I play LB112K10 (about 1 1/4 size) and on tenor I play XT104 rim and C-G cups depending on the horn, from 500-547 bore. I don't play the same rim on bass + tenor, I just can't make that work and get a good sound on both. But I can switch at will between the sizes I use.

[Vegasbound]

Dog Elliott

[WGWTR180]

Doug is certainly a great way to go! However whatever you choose will take work. You want to get to the point of picking up both instruments and having almost zero adjustment period. Doesn't happen overnight.

[HHamby]

...have people had success with sticking with cup depth and getting a different rim size? I was thinking about just getting an 11M for that reason but wanted to hear others opinions on it....

That's backwards from what's been my experience. Get a cup to match the sound of the horn and a rim to fit your face. I've also tried to reconcile bass and tenor. I wind up playing Doug Elliott stuff. On bass I play LB112K10 (about 1 1/4 size) and on tenor I play XT104 rim and C-G cups depending on the horn, from 500-547 bore. I don't play the same rim on bass + tenor, I just can't make that work and get a good sound on both. But I can switch at will between the sizes I use.

What you described for what you use on your tenors is kind of what I mean. On my large bore tenor I play an 11MXL (about a 4 size with a deeper cup) and on bass I play a 21BXL (a 1 size I believe?) and I have no problem switching to that from bass. The 13M is closer to a 6 1/2 size in rim and cup so I was mostly checking to see if people also had success with keeping rim size similar with different cup sizes, which if I understand correctly is what you do with your Doug Elliot. That way all my tenor playing in on an 11 rim with just different cup sizes.

But it seems like most people are in agreement on DE’s mouthpieces so I will definitely look into them. Thanks for the help all!!

[hyperbolica]

... I was mostly checking to see if people also had success with keeping rim size similar with different cup sizes, which if I understand correctly is what you do with your Doug Elliot.

Yes, that seems to work out for a lot of people, but switching between bass and tenor on the same rim isn't as successful.

[spencercarran]

I don't play the same rim on bass + tenor, I just can't make that work and get a good sound on both.

I thought that was supposed to be sorta the main point of the DE modular system?

I think you're making an important point here though; there just isn't any overlap in rim sizes that are reasonable on tenor and bass trombone for most people, so if you want to play both there's not much alternative to playing on different rims. That might mean using DE setups on everything, or it might mean following OP's previous plan of Hammond (or some other brand) on everything - I went through a phase of using Wick on everything from tenor trombone to tuba because the rims were comfortable to me and that comfort reduced the difficulty of switching sizes so often.

[hyperbolica]

I don't play the same rim on bass + tenor, I just can't make that work and get a good sound on both.

I thought that was supposed to be sorta the main point of the DE modular system?

I think you're making an important point here though; there just isn't any overlap in rim sizes that are reasonable on tenor and bass trombone for most people, so if you want to play both there's not much alternative to playing on different rims. That might mean using DE setups on everything, or it might mean following OP's previous plan of Hammond (or some other brand) on everything - I went through a phase of using Wick on everything from tenor trombone to tuba because the rims were comfortable to me and that comfort reduced the difficulty of switching sizes so often.

I play all tenors on the same rim size. Small shank, large shank, from my 48h to my 88h. I tried it with bass, just couldn't get it to work. I got into the DE stuff because I was having issues moving from 6.5al to 5G. It would take me a week to get used to that change. With my DE stuff, I can just pick up one after the other with the same rim but different cups/shanks, and it all works. Somehow I found a combo of tenor and bass pieces where I could make the changes easily.

On tuba, I can only play contrabass trombone mouthpieces easily, its tough to go to pieces bigger than that. It's all about physiology and where hardware and software line up.

[Doug Elliott]

It does depend on physiology and embouchure type and which horn you play more and how easy or difficult high and low range are for you. If you play primarily bass, with strong chops, and only play tenor occasionally, it can work well to use a bass rim size on tenor so it's completely familiar. If you're a tenor player who only occasionally plays bass, you're probably going to need a different rim size for each. Some do well with a large difference in size and some with a smaller difference.

[GabrielRice]

If you play primarily bass, with strong chops, and only play tenor occasionally, it can work well to use a bass rim size on tenor so it's completely familiar.

This is where I am. When I play tenor it's typically large bore (and I do better going the Chicago Symphony LW bass slide/tenor bell route) with a LB114/I cup, but I have also performed on bass trumpet using a hybrid mouthpiece. I owned a Bach 36 for a little while and also did better with a hybrid mouthpiece (LB114/E cup) than with a more standard tenor mouthpiece.

[blast]

I had a lockdown project...get into the small tenor after 50 years. I'm quite happy with where I am with it now. I use a Mt Vernon 11c. To me rim SHAPE is more important than rim size. Tenor and bass rims have to be a similar shape, then all goes well. Just my milage.

[bassclef]

To me rim SHAPE is more important than rim size. Tenor and bass rims have to be a similar shape, then all goes well. Just my milage.

I came here to say this, it's been my experience as well.

I find that if the rim contour and bite are as similar as possible across all of my different tenor & bass mouthpieces, that leads to getting comfortable and sounding good much faster when switching instruments. No matter the other differences between the mouthpiece sizes, when those two elements are similar, I think that the flesh which contacts the rim can interface with it in a familiar way.

[JeffBone44]

...have people had success with sticking with cup depth and getting a different rim size? I was thinking about just getting an 11M for that reason but wanted to hear others opinions on it....

That's backwards from what's been my experience. Get a cup to match the sound of the horn and a rim to fit your face. I've also tried to reconcile bass and tenor. I wind up playing Doug Elliott stuff. On bass I play LB112K10 (about 1 1/4 size) and on tenor I play XT104 rim and C-G cups depending on the horn, from 500-547 bore. I don't play the same rim on bass + tenor, I just can't make that work and get a good sound on both. But I can switch at will between the sizes I use.

I play just about the same equipment as you do, and it works great for me. Bass XB112L8 (would like to get a K cup too) and on all my tenors XT104 with C+ to G+ cups. Since I've been playing bass trombone a lot recently, I've been finding that the XT105 sounds better on my tenors than the 104.