Difference between cheap mouthpiece and Bach/Denis Wick or up

[Taan]

Hello All, this is my first post here.

I'm an experienced musician (Saxophone), but "just" started playing the trombone (4-5 years now of and on.) So let's say i'm beyond beginner level. In my teens, I played alto horn and euphonium, so i wasn't new to brass instruments.
At least I made enough progression to be able to play in the local wind orchestra.

I play a (borrowed) King 2103f with a Denis Wick 6BY. The shaft of this mouthpiece isn't round anymore, so I'm thinking about replacing it, because (among others) I'm experiencing some strange oscilating effects.
For the rest this mouthpiece feels OK.

I thought to begin with a standard 6 1/2 A-S mouthpiece, because I think my tone still has to develope so it's to early to say which MP works and which doesn't. But an intact MP is preferable I guess

On the Thomann webshop I can buy 6 1/2 A (like) Mouthpieces varying from €22,= to €275 so Í'm curious.
Seems to me that mouthpiece isn't very hard to copy nowadays, so what's wrong with that cheap Startone, Gewa-cup or Arnolds & Sons? I'm not on a really tight budget, but why spend more if it's not necessary?

BTW meanwhile i'm looking for a large bore +F instrument like King 2104F, Bach 42

[Elow]

I was happy on a Faxx 6 1/2AL, the plating wore through very quickly though. The expensive options are nice when you’re narrowing down very similar mouthpieces, each one plays and sounds slightly different. If you’re planning on upgrading, i would save up until you can try a couple different sizes and brands and use your Denis Wick for now. You can repair the shank, unless the rim has imperfections. The rim needs to be very clean and scratch free.

[BGuttman]

The main difference between different brands of mouthpiece is the feel. Some are more comfortable than others. Wicks have an unusual rim profile and either you love it or you hate it (doesn't seem to be any middle ground).

The 6AY is not intended for trombone; it's intended for the Yamaha 321 Euphonium, which has a slightly larger shank than a normal small shank.

If you really like it, the 6BS should be pretty close. Also, fixing a dent in the end of the shank is a simple procedure that should not cost much.

The inexpensive mouthpieces are usually copies of something else, usually Bach. Some are better than others. Cheap mouthpieces can often have centering issues. Best to have a good look at one before you accept it.

I'm not going to tell you "don't buy the cheap mouthpiece" but I am going to tell you that you often get what you pay for.

[ithinknot]

As Bruce says, the 6BY (apart from any damage) isn't the right shank for your King. From Wick you'd want the small shank 6BS.

Or, as you say, a 6.5AL in small shank.

Gewa, Arnold and Faxx are all the same, made in Germany by the same company that makes Wick under contract too, IIRC. Nothing wrong with them. I see from the Startone Thomann listing that it says 'made in Germany' too, so that's probably another name from the same source.

Don't go 'eBay/Amazon Chinese mystery cheap'.

[hyperbolica]

Some cheap mouthpieces are great. I've played Faxx and Kelly that were as good as anything else. And then I've played brand name stuff that wasn't anything to brag about. You have to just try stuff, and get recommendations from people you trust or understand. 6 1/2 A is about right for a 3B, maybe a little big, but certainly in range. For a 4B or 42b, you'll probably want 6 1/2 AL or 5G, or something in that size range.

Mouthpieces are highly personal, which is why there are so many different brands, styles and sizes. But, people do have certain tendencies. Bach 6 1/2, 5G and Schilke (48, 51) are generally safe choices. Denis Wick has always been good stuff in my experience.

Mouthpiece quests can be expensive and take a lot of time. Its generally better to stick to standard recommendations until you're a more developed player, unless you have a teacher telling you something or some special requirement.

Best of luck.

[Kingfan]

One way to avoid a long (and possibly expensive) mouthpiece search is to get a Skype lesson with Doug Elliott. He can point you to the right mouthpiece for you and your horn.

[MStarke]

Very generally speaking, cost drivers for mouthpieces are:
- Efforts for developing a specific model
- Making or acquiring specific tools if you don't have them (e.g. for backbores)
- Effort for setting up your machinery for producing a (batch of) specific mouthpiece (obviously depending also on how automated or manual your process is) - which obviously becomes more of an issue the more different models you produce
- The degree of precision that you want to achieve
- The actual material
- The plating
- Any special treatments like engravings, special finishes
- The amount of voodoo magic and moonlight that some makers put in their pieces
I may have forgotten something

Logically the cheaper options are on the reverse end of all these points. This doesn't necessarily need to be bad.

E.g. the Arnold&Sons mouthpieces are in my opinion of relatively good quality.
My general assumption would be that mouthpieces that the bigger music stores are selling should generally be good to play and should last for multiple years.
However you will come to limitations as soon as you have a more specific need in your mouthpiece.

A little bit transparency e.g. for our models/MST STUDIO:
The mouthpieces are made in relatively small numbers (typically batches of 5-10 pieces) and of course have gone through multiple iterations of development before. Plus although our mouthpiece maker has some great tools there is still considerable manual work involved to ensure the high quality and a nice finish, in combination with a high quality plating.

On the other hand at A&S and comparable makers (I don't know but assume that many brands are actually coming from the same place) are producing probably multiple 100 or even 1000 pieces of the same model at a time and certainly try to cut manual work down as far as possible.

[harrisonreed]

I'm not sure about production differences, but typically, the more expensive brands will feature:

1. Rim IDs that are not tied to cup depths, AKA mouthpiece series. So you have the obvious examples of Doug Elliott, and also Griego and Greg Black, where you have specific cup/backbore combinations that are produced in a variety of rim widths. In DE's case the rims are literally independent from the cups.

2. Cup shapes, throat entrances, and bore specs that are fine tuned to a certain type of playing. There is a good reason why the Alessi pieces play really well in a section. In general, makers like Griego and Black are using larger throat specs on pieces across the board. Bach is using comically undersized throats.

3. Unique shank outer diameter specs to optimize how a mouthpiece plays. The Griego-Alessi sticks pretty far out of the leadpipe (although it is a pretty short mouthpiece overall), which gives the feeling of resistance. The special lindberg alto pieces go far into the leadpipe to make the alto feel more open. In the best cases, the shank taper width is used to balance out the rest of the design.

With cheapo mouthpieces, you're generally getting some generic design cut into a preexisting blank, so most of the cool features in 1-3 above are not even thought about.

[Burgerbob]

Bach and Denis Wick are in the cheap category as well, to be honest.

[Vegasbound]

As Bruce says, the 6BY (apart from any damage) isn't the right shank for your King. From Wick you'd want the small shank 6BS.

Or, as you say, a 6.5AL in small shank.

Gewa, Arnold and Faxx are all the same, made in Germany by the same company that makes Wick under contract too, IIRC. Nothing wrong with them. I see from the Startone Thomann listing that it says 'made in Germany' too, so that's probably another name from the same source.

Don't go 'eBay/Amazon Chinese mystery cheap'.

Denis Wick still makes all his stuff in the UK

[Taan]

Thanks for all the replies.
I knew the 6BY wasn't for trombone, but it was the only MP available.
I decided to order the Arnolds 6 1/2 AL-S so I can use it for the rehearsal on thursday.
From what you all say it can't go very wrong.
@Elow, I hope it wears down, that's a sign that I will use it enough. I'll take that as a compliment and happily buy a replacement.
@kingfan, I believe the most important factor is the player. A good player should be able to be very decent on a standard mouthpiece. Once I reach that level (if ever) I might go on that quest.
@MStarke, my thoughts exactly. A good copy in large numbers doesn't have to cost much.
@harrisonreed, i'm just beyond beginner, so I'm not in the 1-2-3- business yet
@Burgerbob, your video on the King 607/2103 made me decide I want to rule out the mouthpiece, because the 2103 can't be that bad. (it's probably me)

[blap73]

Just today I got a Blessing 7C small shank. Why? Because I wanted to try a bigger throat than my Bach Corp 7C and so my intention was to drill the Blessing. If I wreck it... lesson learned cheaply! [$35 with shipping] My intention was to bore it to no more than 6.0mm (0.236") up from the stock 0.230" Imagine my surprise when I find that the 6mm reamer is loose in the bore of the Blessing "7C"! So while the rim diameter does match the Bach, and rim shape looks very similar, the bore is very different!

So another difference between "cheap" v. Bach etc. can be some deliberate modifications despite using the same "size" nomenclature.

I guess I don't need to drill it!
Will I like it or not? Time will tell. At first try I don't hate it...

[Burgerbob]

@Burgerbob, your video on the King 607/2103 made me decide I want to rule out the mouthpiece, because the 2103 can't be that bad. (it's probably me)

They're good horns, on the regular... but there are not-great ones out there too. If it stays the same after a few different mouthpieces and some improvement from you, it could be the problem too.

[harrisonreed]

@kingfan, I believe the most important factor is the player. A good player should be able to be very decent on a standard mouthpiece. Once I reach that level (if ever) I might go on that quest.

It is, but some "standard" mouthpieces are like this no matter how good you are . For me at least.

The Bach 12C and 5G:

[Gfactor]

Just today I got a Blessing 7C small shank. Why? Because I wanted to try a bigger throat than my Bach Corp 7C and so my intention was to drill the Blessing. If I wreck it... lesson learned cheaply! [$35 with shipping] My intention was to bore it to no more than 6.0mm (0.236") up from the stock 0.230" Imagine my surprise when I find that the 6mm reamer is loose in the bore of the Blessing "7C"!

I’ve had a Bach 7C with symphonic backbore on order through Mouthpiece Express for over a year now because I suspected that the standard backbore was too tight for me. Recently I got tired of waiting and ran a 1/4” drill through an old 12C I had. It’s early days but the results are promising so far. It’s much freer blowing with a more edgy sound than before. I definitely haven’t ruined it. I’m planning to take it out to .261” which is equivalent to the AL backbore.

[Posaunus]

I’ve had a Bach 7C with symphonic backbore on order through Mouthpiece Express for over a year now because I suspected that the standard backbore was too tight for me. Recently I got tired of waiting and ran a 1/4” drill through an old 12C I had. It’s early days but the results are promising so far. It’s much freer blowing with a more edgy sound than before. I definitely haven’t ruined it. I’m planning to take it out to .261” which is equivalent to the AL backbore.

Just so you know - the throat diameter is NOT the "backbore." Two different entities. The backbore is the tapered shape downstream of the throat, typically formed by a special reamer inserted into the shank end of the mouthpiece.

What you now have is a 12C mouthpiece with a larger throat diameter (0.250" vs the original 0.230") and what's left of the original backbore.

A 12C drilled out to a 0.261" throat with what's left of a Bach #402 backbore (Bach's 6½AL backbore is #420) may be ... interesting.
Nice experiment. Let us know.

[Doug Elliott]

1/4" is at the top end of what will work OK on a shallow cup like that. Leave it.

[blap73]

I’ve had a Bach 7C with symphonic backbore on order through Mouthpiece Express for over a year now because I suspected that the standard backbore was too tight for me. Recently I got tired of waiting and ran a 1/4” drill through an old 12C I had. It’s early days but the results are promising so far. It’s much freer blowing with a more edgy sound than before. I definitely haven’t ruined it. I’m planning to take it out to .261” which is equivalent to the AL backbore.

Maybe you should try the 7C Blessing. Sounds like what you were looking for, more or less. Still 2 available at https://www.ebay.com/itm/304565469081

[Posaunus]

I’ve had a Bach 7C with symphonic backbore on order through Mouthpiece Express for over a year now because I suspected that the standard backbore was too tight for me. Recently I got tired of waiting and ran a 1/4” drill through an old 12C I had. It’s early days but the results are promising so far. It’s much freer blowing with a more edgy sound than before. I definitely haven’t ruined it. I’m planning to take it out to .261” which is equivalent to the AL backbore.

Greg,

Unless you're absolutely committed to the Bach 7C Rim and Cup, perhaps what you really need is a slightly larger mouthpiece overall. Rather than getting a special order (which may not do the trick) or doing your own throat drilling, you might consider off-the-shelf pieces such as:
• Bach 6½AM (1.00" Cup I.D., 0.257" Throat, #413 backbore)
• Conn 3 (~0.995" Cup I.D., 0.250" Throat)
• Curry 6M (0.988" Cup I.D., 0.257" Throat)
• Giddings "Harry Watters" (1.00" Cup I.D., 0.259" Throat)
• Josef Klier 9D (0.984" Cup I.D., 0.252" Throat)
• Marcinkiewicz ET4 "Lloyd Ulyate" (~0.985" Cup I.D., 0.246" Throat)

[Doug Elliott]

True. If you think the throat or backbore is too tight, it's usually because the rim size is too small for you. Not the throat or backbore.

[harrisonreed]

Just today I got a Blessing 7C small shank. Why? Because I wanted to try a bigger throat than my Bach Corp 7C and so my intention was to drill the Blessing. If I wreck it... lesson learned cheaply! [$35 with shipping] My intention was to bore it to no more than 6.0mm (0.236") up from the stock 0.230" Imagine my surprise when I find that the 6mm reamer is loose in the bore of the Blessing "7C"!

I’ve had a Bach 7C with symphonic backbore on order through Mouthpiece Express for over a year now because I suspected that the standard backbore was too tight for me. Recently I got tired of waiting and ran a 1/4” drill through an old 12C I had. It’s early days but the results are promising so far. It’s much freer blowing with a more edgy sound than before. I definitely haven’t ruined it. I’m planning to take it out to .261” which is equivalent to the AL backbore.

This likely has very little effect on the overall resistance. Drilling a straight hole basically increases the length of the bore or throat, which increases the resistance. So as you go wider with a drill, you go longer.

A long throat will compress the octaves so you go flat in the upper register. This is why a lot of "lead" trumpet mouthpieces make regular joe players go flat when they are trying to scream, using Bobby Shew's piece or whatever artist. Things were literally designed to make guys who boss the horn around go flat where they are usually overblowing and going sharp.

[Gfactor]

Thanks all. I realise the conventional wisdom is to go to a larger rim size. I have a Yamaha 48 which I quite like for symphony, but the sound is wrong for jazz. I’ve also tried a 6.5AL and a Wick 10CS (horrible tone). Doug, I remember you telling me that upstream players like me often need very small or very large rims. Maybe I’m in the former camp. Posaunus- thanks for suggesting some alternatives I haven’t heard of. I’m going to stick with my “Frankenstein” piece for a while and see what happens.