But why, Eastman? (Re: Laskey)

pjanda1 · Post by **pjanda1** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:17 pm

I played a Laskey 57MD for a bit during grad school, and I really enjoyed what it offered compared to anything else I could find at the time. I recently picked up a 50C, and it is really an interesting thing. Probably the shallowest mouthpiece I've ever sounded o.k. on, and it feels like I could play lead all day when not in great shape.

I'm frustrated to see Eastman recycle the name for something that has nothing to do with the mouthpieces Scott made. The Alessi range doesn't even include the very popular cup diameters of the 57 or 59 Laskeys, jumping from something smaller than what many of us play to something bigger.

While I'm guessing that Hammond fills much of Laskey's niche (I don't have a 57MD to compare to my 12ML or a 13S, which I'm guessing would be quite similar to the 50C), it is always good to have options. Some might say we are low on alternatives for such efficient designs.

Equally significantly, I like brands that have a POV. I have purchased many shoes from both Hoka and Allen Edmonds, but I'm not particularly interested in either making something that would fit squarely in the other's line.

I I don't mind Alessi getting paid, but why not just use his name? If Eastman gets around to reproducing actual Laskey mouthpieces, that might stoke the curiosity of more than a few of us while staying true to the late Mr. Laskey's vision.

Paul

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 8:26 pm

Easy. To make money.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 9:18 pm

Oh you summer child. I loved talking to Scott Laskey. When he died, no one stepped in to continue his work.
The new “Laskey” had to beg, borrow, and buy old mouthpieces to reverse engineer his designs.
No one cares about legacy (in the retail industry) or what a brand name means. Just that it is a name people recognize.
The full line of French horn and tuba mouthpieces have been out for years now. ITF is supposed to be the big launch of the standard line trombone and bass trombone pieces from what I understand. I hope they are good. I have owned at least 20 Laskey 85MD pieces over the years and they were all different. I play a Griego Markey 85 and it feels improved and they are consistent.
Will the new Lakseys be better? The same? Who knows. But buying the name made their pieces relevant as opposed to the Shires mouthpieces that never took off.

Edit: I have a friend that I run posts by and I asked if this came off rude. He said it could so let me clarify a bit.
Scott Laskey made great mouthpieces are varied a lot. They haven’t existed in sometime and now they do again. I hope they are great and look forward to trying them.
The maybe rude part: business is ruthless and companies don’t care about people, only profits. I don’t blame Eastman. They bought a brand name and now want to make a profit. The tuba and French horn world love their new Laskeys! Let’s hope the trombone ones are great too.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:08 pm

The Shires mouthpieces are terrible, FWIW. Nothing to do with branding. Heaviest small shank piece I've ever held.

My French horn playing friends are mostly on the new laskeys

Post by **Matt K** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 6:13 am

I have some of their older pieces… probably even before Eastman acquisition when they were made down at… Pickett? May even be from before that. I’ve had them threaded for Doug’s rims and they work pretty well. I even used one as a daily driver until Doug released his new and improved, you can take them from my cold, dead, hands, E shanks in 2020.

They are a bit on the heavy side though; I used them for classical work, so I thought it was acceptably heavy for my use case. They’ve never made a piece that would work for my commercial playing other than the small shank 6.5AL, which I do have threaded for XT rims. Everything else starts to be too small a rim even to thread with that rim size. It’s been a few years since I dusted off that one. Maybe I should dig that out.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:12 am

Laskey (Eastman) did officially announce on Facebook that the large shank 54M, 57MD, 57D, 59MD, & 59D mouthpieces will be available this summer. I would assume that when they purchased Laskey Mouthpieces from Scott Laskey's family that they got all of the tooling, templates etc. However they were probably also aware that his mouthpieces had been tweaked over time, which could be one reason that they wanted to hunt down actual examples?

I don't know what kind of machine setup Laskey used, but I assume it was "old school" with templates and calipers, not with a multi-axis CNC machine. Even if you have the design schematics for something, and/or the tooling, it takes more than just that to make a mouthpiece.

As for why the Alessi mouthpieces aren't available in more incremented sizes. It really does seem like the line was designed to pretty much avoid cross brand competition with the old Laskey designs. Maybe they'll make more in the future? I don't know who they have really working the design aspects at Laskey.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:29 am

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 7:12 am Even if you have the design schematics for something, and/or the tooling, it takes more than just that to make a mouthpiece.

If you have accurate scans, an accurate lathe that you stay on top of, and keep an eye on quality control .... that's pretty much all it takes to replicate a mouthpiece as scanned.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:46 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 8:29 amIf you have accurate scans, an accurate lathe that you stay on top of, and keep an eye on quality control .... that's pretty much all it takes to replicate a mouthpiece as scanned.

Might be why Laskey / Eastman decided to hunt down different examples of mouthpieces "in the wild". Probably easier to just scan them in and work from there.

Now this has me wondering on what the design process was for the Alessi mouthpieces. Did they do more designing in the computer, or more of the traditional way, and then scanned them in.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:02 am

They did not buy any tooling or templates. Just the name.
That tooling is obsolete and would not be useful at all anymore.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:30 am

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:02 am They did not buy any tooling or templates. Just the name.
That tooling is obsolete and would not be useful at all anymore.

According to their website:

"After acquiring the company assets from the Laskey family, we verified and backed-up the original drawings, design files and CNC Machine codes. We worked tirelessly to analyze and reverse engineer Scott Laskey's original designs, matching real world samples acquired and loaned to us against the original drawings and our own rebuilds of the design files that were missing. "

So it looks like they didn't get just the name.

ngrinder · Post by **ngrinder** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 10:09 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Jul 10, 2023 10:08 pm The Shires mouthpieces are terrible, FWIW. Nothing to do with branding. Heaviest small shank piece I've ever held.

My French horn playing friends are mostly on the new laskeys

The old, non-Pickett, non-Eastman pieces were fantastic, though. Yes the blank has always been a bit heavy, but I loved the 11C, 7C, and 5GS. Really fine examples of each, and a fairly unorthodox but incredible design on the 11C. But...the new ones and the Pickett made pieces were never to my liking.

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 11:35 am

I don't think that Griego would just give the Alessi files away. They probably scanned the Griego line with a probe to get their own files, and then refined the design in the software.

RustBeltBass · Post by **RustBeltBass** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:14 pm

Who of those who commented here have actually played the Laskey/Alessi series ?

WilliamLang · Post by **WilliamLang** » Tue Jul 11, 2023 9:21 pm

I haven't commented yet - but I've played on the 55 and 60 SOLO and SYMPH lines of the new Alessi-Laskey series. The SYMPH lines are very much in line with Joe's designs at Griego and Greg Black, but are slightly lighter, and lack the three rings on the shank design of the Griego. They are the most comfortable of the 3 lines in terms of feel on the face, as they feel slightly more rounded at the rim.

In terms of the SYMPH line that would be my go-to before the Greigo or Greg Black line up - they carry very well through notes and make connections super easy, and don't go "into the red" quite as easily as the other Alessi mouthpieces I've tried. I can get more overall volume on a Griego 1D, but it's almost comical how loud it is.

As far as the SOLO line - I did not like it as much. I found that the older Laskeys I have (a 57E and 59D) made by Scott were much more suited to solo and chamber playing. The SOLO line felt like a middle ground that didn't need to exist so much. I also found that I prefer the older Laskeys (with non-Italicized lettering in the size) over the second round of production. I have not had a chance to try the new classical line up - though I am looking forward to trying a 59E (I've also had a fondness for euphonium style cups on trombone, to be honest.)

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:35 am

I have tried all the Laskey Alessi mouthpieces.

JKBone85 · Post by **JKBone85** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 8:03 am

Joel and Jeremy do really care about the work they are doing.

Also, I have tried all the Laskey/Alessi offerings. They aren't exactly what I need or am looking for, but they play well and I'm looking forward to what else they come out with.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:27 am

Yeah and they are doing a great job!

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 12:25 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:35 am I have tried all the Laskey Alessi mouthpieces.

Review?

Also, wouldn’t it be nice if Laskey updated their website?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:47 pm

Fwiw: the "real" Laskeys are back. Just bought a brand new 85MD.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:53 pm

They could update the website.

Kevbach33 · Post by **Kevbach33** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 9:54 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 7:53 pm They could update the website.

This doesn't just go for the Laskey site, either. It seems like Eastman is just slow to update (or help update) all the websites of the Eastman umbrella's brands.

For instance, Shires has, in the last couple years, released several euphonium models, both Q and custom series. Even now, only the Q series (Q40 and Q41) are listed. By contrast (and Eastman is no longer a small company, I feel) Conn Selmer quickly updated it's Bach site when new standard trumpet configurations (and the new 170 Apollo) were made available. Ditto Yamaha with the YBL835 bass bone and YXB623 tubas.

Sales come first, but what's the hang-up with the updated sites, I wonder?

WilliamLang · Post by **WilliamLang** » Wed Jul 12, 2023 10:26 pm

my guess would be that a new pro shires model of euphonium would sell like... 20 horns in a year? the new "classic" laskey line up of trombone mouthpieces might do what, like 200 sales in a year outside of music shops? at best? with modern capitalism ideals (which i mostly hate, tbh) what's the point of selling to individuals vs. sending customized emails to large instrument retailers and letting them do the hard work for you?

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:27 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:47 pm Fwiw: the "real" Laskeys are back. Just bought a brand new 85MD.

How do you like it?

Boneuphtoner · Post by **Boneuphtoner** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:00 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Wed Jul 12, 2023 6:47 pm Fwiw: the "real" Laskeys are back. Just bought a brand new 85MD.

Very curious to hear what your impressions are - don't you have the comparable Griego Markey? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that comparison. The Griego website says the Markey line all have deep cups, but the Markey 87/90 I tried were obviously more shallow than my Yamaha Yeo (and that is a touch shallower than a 1G/60, etc.).

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:15 am

Boneuphtoner wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 7:00 amVery curious to hear what your impressions are - don't you have the comparable Griego Markey? It would be interesting to hear your thoughts on that comparison. The Griego website says the Markey line all have deep cups, but the Markey 87/90 I tried were obviously more shallow than my Yamaha Yeo (and that is a touch shallower than a 1G/60, etc.).

What I have always found interesting is that Yamaha describes the Yeo Mouthpiece as having a "Semi-deep" cup. I have one but haven't had much time to play with it. I also have an original Laskey 85MD that I played a lot in previous years, so I'm debating on whether or not to get one of the new ones.

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:07 am

The 85 I bought is not for me! I am quite happy with my Markey 87, which doesn't have a "real" Laskey size.

WGWTR180 · Post by **WGWTR180** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:21 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:07 am The 85 I bought is not for me! I am quite happy with my Markey 87, which doesn't have a "real" Laskey size.

Did you have any previous experience on the original 85MD?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:42 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:21 am
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:07 am The 85 I bought is not for me! I am quite happy with my Markey 87, which doesn't have a "real" Laskey size.
Did you have any previous experience on the original 85MD?

I do not, only the 90 and 93.

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:34 am

WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:21 am
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:07 am The 85 I bought is not for me! I am quite happy with my Markey 87, which doesn't have a "real" Laskey size.
Did you have any previous experience on the original 85MD?

I also bought one at ITF, I have 2 other 85MDs and a host of offerings in a similar size, Shires 1.25MD, Griego GP and a Breslmair 112 just to name a few.

I didn’t bring my other 85s to compare but it’s similar, little different blank shape and lighter than I remember. I was gonna write up a report when I get back home. Regardless it’s a good mouthpiece and for $169 retail ($134 ITF pricing), it’s got a nice sound and that classic “pizazz”

fwiw I don’t play laskey anymore

Kbiggs · Post by **Kbiggs** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:37 am

Did the Laskey/Backun/Eastman booth say where their mouthpieces will be sold?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 11:23 am

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:37 am Did the Laskey/Backun/Eastman booth say where their mouthpieces will be sold?

I can ask.

SwissTbone · Post by **SwissTbone** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:20 pm

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 10:37 am Did the Laskey/Backun/Eastman booth say where their mouthpieces will be sold?

I have ordered a batch and they are on my way. 149$.

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:49 pm

85MD: Medium deep, 285 mm.

Throat?

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:26 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 12:49 pm 85MD: Medium deep, 285 mm.

Throat?

Pretty sure it’s still the .295ish I think

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 2:39 pm

BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 1:26 pmPretty sure it’s still the .295ish I think

Should be, if they are sticking to the originals. I think the 82MD which hadn't been made for years also had that measurement. When comparing my Laskey 85MD to the Griego-Markey 85 and 87, the throat seems to be much closer to the 85MD than to the big boys like the 90 93 and 95.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:34 pm

Aiden bought the Laskey 85MD for me. I plan to play test it against my Laskey 85 that is the best I have ever played and the Markey 85 I play now.

tbonesullivan · Post by **tbonesullivan** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:01 pm

ZacharyThornton wrote: ↑Fri Jul 14, 2023 8:34 pm Aiden bought the Laskey 85MD for me. I plan to play test it against my Laskey 85 that is the best I have ever played and the Markey 85 I play now.

I always had a somewhat love/hate relationship with my 85MD. I always wished the rim was a bit thinner, and on the one I have at least, the rim profile shape is like a train track, with a distinct flat area on top.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Fri Jul 14, 2023 9:49 pm

They were wildly different so I look forward to trying this one out. The Markey 85 is thinner and I love it. I have been playing it for a year a half. Got it a few months before they were released everywhere. But I am going to give give this laskey a full month trial !

pjanda1 · Post by **pjanda1** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 5:53 pm

I'm not naïve regarding the supposed nature of business. In my actual job as a commercial litigator, I've been privy to the destruction of more than a few dreams. I find that my peers and I are far, far more cynical than most of the entrepreneurs we work with. But, if folks get in to any aspect of the trombone business just for the money I'd question their judgment. And, I got a couple of degrees in trombone after growing up on a dryland farm .... My thinking is that divorcing the name from the original vision is risky because brand names only have value until they don't.

I love what Eastman is doing overall. My quibbles with the treatment of the Laskey name pale in comparison to the fate that befell brands sucked into other conglomerates. If I had to replace my '41 32H, '68 8H, or '34 70H with something new, I'm pretty sure the instrument choose with wouldn't say "Conn" on the bell. I do have some personal issues in my circle with behavior from another one of their marks (not a brass instrument). And, I intentionally refrained from any comparison to their Shires-branded mouthpieces. But again, I understand that it is not an easy industry. It is critical to have folks with some organizational strength and capital supporting our endeavors, and because we are an anachronistic, idiosyncratic, and parsimonious bunch, I don't envy anyone trying to divine our desires in service of putting dinner on the table.

I was at ITF for a couple of hours, and it didn't even occur to me to see if there were the old-style Laskeys at the booth! I'm pretty sure I saw Aidan nearby (he's not undistinctive, and was maybe trying a Haag?). I was bummed by the lack of Conn style/two piece bell large tenors (all around). I just got back to town haven't had a horn on my face since ITF on Wednesday. Nonetheless, I just accepted a call to play some lead in a big band tomorrow night. The 50C will probably be the right cheat code for my presently floppy face!

Paul

Bach5G · Post by **Bach5G** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:34 pm

ITF is over. Where are the reviews?

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:51 pm

Nearly done with a 10 hour drive home... Wait a second!

harrisonreed · Post by **harrisonreed** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:15 pm

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:51 pm Nearly done with a 10 hour drive home... Wait a second!

Thou shalt not post and drive

Burgerbob · Post by **Burgerbob** » Sun Jul 16, 2023 11:04 pm

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 7:15 pm
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:51 pm Nearly done with a 10 hour drive home... Wait a second!
Thou shalt not post and drive

Twas a passenger at the time of posting, have no fear!

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:15 pm

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:34 pm ITF is over. Where are the reviews?

Have my 85MD, it’s good imo. Nicer sound, fuller and more responsive. Better feedback over my cut bell and a weighted healthier sound that’s more even than my other 2 laskeys and, a different rim I think. I’ll do a longer review when I’ve played on it for more than an hour or so. I’m also sure Zach will have some thoughts too.

I’m still not switching off my ultimate brass I think but this is a good good piece. If you’re asking why, the articulations on UB are better for me and work with my heavy bell. The 85MD clicks well and has nice front, marginally better than my Markey 87 and Breslmair 112, the 2 main pieces I was going back and forth between before having Sun He set me up at STS. If this piece existed before I got fitted I wouldn’t have and would’ve been very happy with it

bassbone1993 · Post by **bassbone1993** » Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:21 pm

BigBadandBass wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:15 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun Jul 16, 2023 6:34 pm ITF is over. Where are the reviews?
Have my 85MD, it’s good imo. Nicer sound, fuller and more responsive. Better feedback over my cut bell and a weighted healthier sound that’s more even than my other 2 laskeys and, a different rim I think. I’ll do a longer review when I’ve played on it for more than an hour or so. I’m also sure Zach will have some thoughts too.

I’m still not switching off my ultimate brass I think but this is a good good piece. If you’re asking why, the articulations on UB are better for me and work with my heavy bell. The 85MD clicks well and has nice front, marginally better than my Markey 87 and Breslmair 112, the 2 main pieces I was going back and forth between before having Sun He set me up at STS. If this piece existed before I got fitted I wouldn’t have and would’ve been very happy with it

Which ultimate brass mouthpiece? I've yet to try any of their bass pieces.

BigBadandBass · Post by **BigBadandBass** » Tue Jul 18, 2023 1:32 am

bassbone1993 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 17, 2023 7:21 pm
Which ultimate brass mouthpiece? I've yet to try any of their bass pieces.

G125M, I tried two others from them and came away with that, they’re really nice and I got a good discount because of STS and my former teacher is an artist with them.

ZacharyThornton · Post by **ZacharyThornton** » Wed Jul 26, 2023 12:11 pm

Very quick observation: The new Laskey 85MD is way different from the Griego Markey 85 and my original Laskey 85MD. Spent about an hour on the new Laskey, it is more "V" shaped and feels a bit bigger than my old Laskey. TBH, the Markey feels more like the old Laskey than the New one. All three are great pieces and I will be giving them all some time to see how it turns out. I have been playing the Markey 85 for a year and a half. Haven't played my original Laskey in years.
The originals had so much variance that it is not surprising that the new one is different. With today's technology, I expect all the New ones will be very close to the same.