Help with finding DE bass setup

[braymond21]

Hello everyone!

I've been trying a Doing Elliott mouthpiece on my bass and it's been great, but I think there's a little something that's still off. I'm playing on a Yamaha 830 Xeno bass bone.

Here's the parts that I've got:
All are LB series
Rims: 112, 113, 114
Cup: L
Shanks: L8, L9

I've found that the 113/114, with the L8 shank is comfortable, but restraining in the low end. It's easy to play but doesn't quite get the sound I want and low end takes some work. Using the 112 rim feels too small overall

Using the 112 rim with the L9 shank, I get a good sound and ease of playing in the low end, but mid/upper range is more difficult to slot into and I overshoot/undershoot/split the notes. I had a similar problem when playing dual bore horns, is that means anything. Using the 113 rim is about the same but starts to feel too large, and the 114 rim feels too large with the larger shank

My next thought is trying a larger cup but I wanted to get some input before dropping more money on parts!

[Doug Elliott]

L10 backbore will open up the bottom range nicely.
I've made some design improvements over the years. If the L8 is an earlier one, you might try the 2023 version.

[braymond21]

Thanks Mr. Doug, I'll give that a look! Will it have the same issue was the L9 in regards to not being able to slot well?

[Doug Elliott]

The #9 is strictly for dual bore horns. The new L8 and L10 slot well.

[GabrielRice]

The Yamaha 830 swallows mouthpieces very deep. Doug, have you made a shank specifically for it?

[Matt K]

I seem to recall Harrison was playing an 830 for the military band he's in and ended up putting some teflon tape at the bottom of the shank for that reason.

[Doug Elliott]

I can make them with a larger taper., just tell me how far it goes in now so I can get it right.

[braymond21]

I'm actually leaning to switch out the leadpipe with the new 835 one to fix that depth issue. Yamaha insists it doesn't affect anything, but I'm sure it does, otherwise they wouldn't have changed it for the new model!

Doug, I'll send you an email to grab those shanks and give them a try

[GabrielRice]

The other (expensive) thing you might try is the same stuff in the XB series, which opens up the feel of the low register really nicely.

[tbonesullivan]

I'm actually leaning to switch out the leadpipe with the new 835 one to fix that depth issue. Yamaha insists it doesn't affect anything, but I'm sure it does, otherwise they wouldn't have changed it for the new model!

Doug, I'll send you an email to grab those shanks and give them a try

The YBL-613H was when they first used that leadpipe in the U.S. market, from 1995 to 2006, and I have not really heard people complaining about any problems caused by the increased insertion depth when discussing that model. The Doug Yeo models also have an increased insertion depth, or at least the 822G does.

When the 830 was released, the "improvements" that Yamaha put in their marketing were:
- Switching from single piece cork barrels to two piece cork barrels for better sound
- Switching to a Nickel Silver end bow on the slide for better sound
- switching the hand slide bracing central portions to brass for better sound
- switching the rotation direction of the second valve
- switching to Bb/F/Gb/D tuning only to have more ability to tune the second valve.

However the leadpipe was not changed, and it wasn't until after almost 30 years of using that leadpipe design in the U.S. market that they decided to change, possibly due to the increased insertion depth making some brands of mouthpieces incompatible with the horns. It may also have been something that Tomer Maschkowski wanted. The marketing stuff says that it was to give the "mouthpiece more freedom to resonate. The result is a more flexible playing feel and easier control."

I'm not sure I really buy that. Much more important I would think is the spacing between the throat of the mouthpiece and the venturi of the leadpipe, as well as the associated tapers. Yamaha uses 2 piece leadpipes. so it would be relatively simple of them to just take 2-3mm off the top of the receiver portion and call it a new leadpipe. If they changed the tapers, well that's something totally different, and a new design.

If you are concerned that the mouthpiece is too far in, teflon tape is a far quicker, easier, and cheaper way of experimentation than the chore of having a leadpipe pulled and replaced. Or you could see if Adams has any plans to release a trombone version of their euphonium "adjustable gap receiver", which allows you to fine tune the spacing between the throat of the mouthpiece and the leadpipe venturi.

[harrisonreed]

Hello everyone!

I've been trying a Doing Elliott mouthpiece on my bass and it's been great, but I think there's a little something that's still off. I'm playing on a Yamaha 830 Xeno bass bone.

This is your problem. The normal mouthpiece taper goes in too far into this horn for it to play well.

It's not just the leadpipe issue, that horn design is just ... not it.

[braymond21]

I think the horn is fine, although I know it's not perfect. But it's working well for me and I've already tried (to various degrees of success):

2 Bach 50B2
Bach 50B
Conn 112H
Conn 62H
Holton 181
King 8B
King Duo Gravis
Getzen 3062AF and AFR
XO 1240RL-T
Eastman 848G
JP/Rath JP333
4-5 configurations of Shires
2 configurations of Edwards

So far, the Yamaha is easy to play without much effort and works for the jazz and concert band settings I need it for so I'm trying to stick with it and fix the smaller issues.

I'm always up for horn suggestions but I'm trying to stop buying so many!

[harrisonreed]

Try adding tape so that the mouthpiece goes in only 1"

This improved the lower end resistance for me and let me play with decent volume. It also made the upper register play with a tighter sound and better intonation.

The low end is taking work because there is almost no resistance on that horn. When I was using it on the Maslanka 4, I remember that not only were the low Cs barely projecting, but my air was completely tanked after only 2 seconds trying to match the tubas. This isn't the case on other basses, and the tape trick helped add some much needed resistance into the system.

[braymond21]

I gave the teflon trick a try and it definitely did something! I'm not sure I like it more, but I'm going to keep messing with it and see what happens. Thanks for the tip!

[tbonesullivan]

I gave the teflon trick a try and it definitely did something! I'm not sure I like it more, but I'm going to keep messing with it and see what happens. Thanks for the tip!

It definitely does have an effect. Mouthpiece Maker Bob Reeves started using a sleeve system over 40 years for trumpet mouthpieces to fine tune the distance between the end of the mouthpiece and the beginning of the leadpipe. Recently trombone mouthpieces with the system became available, and I think it is possible to have mouthpieces adapted to use the system.

In the system, the idea was that you could find the right sleeve for different instruments, and you would be able to easily use the same mouthpiece on several different horns.

I can say I've never taken the time to really experiment with the teflon tape thing. Sam Burtis (username sabutin on the old forum) was a big advocate of this, and I believe would sand down the shanks of his mouthpieces so that he could build them back up slowly, trying to find the optimal depth.

As for me, I really am not good enough a player to effectively evaluate differences so subtle.