Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:48 am
Actually, occurs to me that, for once, binding arbitration might be helpful in this circumstance. Most universities already have a code of conduct in some capacity. Adding arbitration teeth to it might be enough to actually get the document to mean something.
Matt, it seems to me that the document you shared has a few problems.
Waiver of Court Proceedings
Confidentiality
Lack of appeal process
With those issues I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome corrupted systems.
If your answer is that the arbitrator and investigator are both neutral third parties and that the victim has a say in who they are, then I’d say that might help. But I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome the issues present.
Additionally, I’m a firm believer that if an accusation is found to be true, it should be public knowledge. Likewise, a person who makes false accusations should be exposed. The obvious problem with that is that if the system continually fails dispense justice correctly and “protects their own” then legitimate victims are essentially abused yet again by being labeled something they are not. But I digress. That was not the main point I was trying to make.
FYI the trend is away from binding arbitration and confidentiality for sexual harassment/assault allegations. Indeed, both the federal and several state governments in the U.S. have recently passed laws invalidating requirements for arbitration and confidentiality for these claims, precisely because those methods have so often been used to protect institutions and perpetrators at the expense of victims. So, that's probably not the way to go in 2025.
For instance, California, where I live, passed a specific law saying that any binding arbitration or confidentiality requirement for sexual harassment/assault claims involving any employer or employee is invalid and cannot be enforced. The feds have done the same thing for claims in the federal government employment context, too. That's the trend.
You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.
No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.
Simple as pie.
I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making it out to be. You’ve just asserted them to be the same.
I didn't assert them to be anything, I made a logical connection between them. Politics is about context, and as a human cannot be separated from his/her context, there is no behaviour without context; hence every human action can - and maybe should - be deemed political.
One reason for this, is that everybody - consciously or not - has a policy towards everybody else, and take actions according to each policy, and those policies are, by necessity, derived from each context in which the individual meets those others.
Another reason for deeming all behaviour political, is that as a person's private actions derive from a context, any change in that context from political reasons also will affect the private actions of that person, when a change in a person's context from personal reasons also provoke a change in political choices and views. There are plenty of examples on this reciprocity.
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell? Brave Vanessa Fralick! I don't think think it's easy. Nor to tell about it, but the worst must have been to experience such violence. I call it violence because it's kind of psychological violence. And for her it maybe has been hurting all this years.
Let's just be better humans? We as teachers have a big responsibility.
In a way I think it's the road to be great trombone players too. I'm thinking about the other interesting thread about how to be a great trombone player.
Savio wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:51 am
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?
I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
I am not a lawyer, so I wouldn't recommend literally putting exactly that document in place w/o review from an actual lawyer. If there are restrictions in place in CA, for example, then there must be some other way to essentially say that "under situation x y will happen".
It might not fix all (or perhaps even most) instances, but it might at least help with instances like this one where there appears to be written, documented records of the harassment.
If it needs additional clauses to prevent the employees from suing the entity, then that seems like it would be a good clause to add. A more rigorous appeals process and some degree of confidentiality seem like good ideas too.
Savio wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:51 am
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?
I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.
I believe you. And I'm so sorry. I think we older men have listen men boast about it a lot in our time. And I'm not exactly guiltless over the years.... I'm so sorry and I believe you. It just has to change. Not only in the trombone world.
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:
Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:24 pm
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:
Yes, thanks for being open to change your mind. I think all of us - especially men who've been in this business for a few decades - have had a lot to learn about this. I have my own regrets about my words and actions in the past...but show me someone who claims to have no regrets and I'll assume I'm looking at a sociopath, a liar, or both.
Thank you, Gabe, for sharing your story. I worked as a drug and alcohol counselor for nearly 12 years. I know through secondhand experience how difficult it can be to listen to or read other’s trauma—the stories of people who have been abused. Helping other people re-process their use and their trauma sometimes traumatizes the counselor. For the abused person, speaking or writing about it usually brings on symptoms experienced during the initial incident—fight, flight, freeze or fawn response. I also know how difficult it is to work through one’s own trauma that is not sexual, but still traumatic.
Too many people have a history of trauma and abuse—not just people with a substance use disorder, but too may people, period. The populations I worked with turned to substances in their attempts to dull the pain and push away the memories. Not all do that, but a great majority.
I am not surprised it took Vanessa 18 years to speak out. The experience itself makes it difficult for the abused person to describe and put into words. It affects all areas of the brain, as Gabor Maté has said, and prevents the mind from making any kind of sense of the experience.
To add to Vanessa’s pressures, there is the student-teacher relationship, the high-pressure arena of a master class, and the small community of individuals who rise to the very top of the profession. All that, and more, make it so very difficult to speak about it.
Counselors and therapists are there to help people learn to deal and cope with traumatic and abusive events, but there is a very different relationship to the person and the event when it is made public. Some of it is supportive. More often, it has been degrading and dismissive. In the past, i.e., a male-dominated culture that was too often misogynistic if not patronizing, such events were probably just as common, but rarely discussed. When brought to public attention, stories about sexual abuse usually devolved into a “he said, she said” argument.
Since people started speaking about such events—grooming, taking advantage, rape, etc.—we are hearing more stories like this. Think of the #metoo movement. One the one hand, it is disheartening and awful to hear these stories. That other humans could be so selfish about and careless towards their fellow humans is heart-breaking. On the other hand, that these kinds of stories are heard now at all testifies to the courage of the abused. The caring and compassionate side in all of us cannot help but be moved. (If you’re not moved, I ask with the greatest respect that you develop some introspection.)
So: I applaud Vanessa Fralick and others like her for speaking out. And think about—it took her 18 years to discuss it in the open. That’s a long time.
& & & & &
On a personal note, I studied with Mr. Ellefson occasionally before his time in Seattle, and prior to his time at IU. (I am aware, of course, that he contributes to TC from time to time.) Although I was never a target—I’m a white male, a population rarely victimized in this particular population—Peter is not the first teacher I’ve had who took advantage of students.
Nevertheless, I remember some positive things: He is a tough teacher who demands perfection. He taught me to keep going when playing. Don’t stop. It’s as if you’re playing for a ballet. If you make a mistake, you have to keep going. You can’t ask the dancers and the orchestra to stop and back up a few bars so you can play that lick again to get it right. He taught me that mistakes are just that, and nothing more. Don’t apologize for making a mistake—unless it was deliberate, in which case it’s not a mistake, and it needs an apology.
& & & & &
It has been a difficult weekend, reading about this and reconciling my thoughts and memories with other people’s experiences. I’m going to try to practice to bring a little peace of mind.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:37 am
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
I have two doubts about this.
Yes, the contract says they will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place, but... all the more pressure on the institution to get a finding of "no harassment".
Because... it's not easy attracting star teachers, the sort with reputations that attract exceptional students, the sort that may even actually be effective teachers, groping and harassing aside.
I don't know if the current individual counts as a star, but the student has to wonder who is perceived as more essential to the institution: the no-name student from Pawtucket or the teacher with the orchestra principal post and 25 students who enrolled because they wanted to study with HIM?
Other doubt... the student has to sign this, and sign away rights he would have otherwise had, or not be allowed to enroll? Will that even hold up? It's like a pre-nup you are made to sign right before a wedding, it's probably not valid because it was "under duress".
More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...
Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:37 am
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...
Just as I said in my first post. You do not need to socialize with your students. The private lesson situation remains a problem though. Could be all lessons should be in public or at least should be group lessons or video lessons or in rooms with walls of glass so it is impossible to hide. My workplace is like that. There is no angle in any corner of any room that can not be seen from outside, and I work as a computer programmer. I do not know why they built our particular workplace like that. It could be they want to make sure we work and not sleep at work.
/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue Feb 18, 2025 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is not a rehearsal
Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
Yes thank you. I saw this.
So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:58 am
Yes thank you. I saw this.
So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.
Yes I clearly messed up the order when reading the posts. He and I have spoken.
Has there been any public response from Mr. Ellefson or Mr. Alessi to this? Obviously, Mr. Alessi was not accused of anything, but his name is on the seminar.
Mikebmiller wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 2:04 pm
Has there been any public response from Mr. Ellefson or Mr. Alessi to this? Obviously, Mr. Alessi was not accused of anything, but his name is on the seminar.
I received an email from Mr.Ellefson right after my post, but I will not share our conversation unless I hear from him directly.
Take it as you might, but that is why I removed my post here AND on faceplant.....
Eric
Eric Edwards
Professional Instrument Repair
972.795.5784
"If you must choose between two evils, choose the one you haven't tried yet."
"Rather fail with honor than succeed by fraud." -Sophocles
Reading through it, the whole situation is weird if I am to believe what Ellefson claims in the email he wrote. What a strangely specific claim he made.
In any case, teachers should not be going to after parties with their adult students any more than they should pursue personal relationships with them. Music students should go into the teacher-student situation knowing that musicians as a whole are weird, strange people that you should be wary of. That seems like a joke, but it's really not bad advice in the long run. If you think it's cool to be partying with someone twice your age, or who is your teacher or in a teacher role, you're not right. If you think it's cool to party with someone half your age, you're dead wrong. Get a life.
I wouldn't go so far as to say teachers shouldn't go to parties with students, as long as boundaries are respected and it's clear what kind of event it is. One of the boundaries has to be that's it's never OK to get drunk or stoned with students. End-of-semester studio parties are not at all uncommon, and they can be great events. In this case I think it was the party at the end of an intense seminar.
The problem here was not the party per se, I don't think. It was Peter's behavior at the party and then afterwards.
It might be because I'm in the military, but I disagree. You shouldn't be in a position of authority AND be friends with the people you have authority over. You can't fairly assess the performance / grade of people you are friends with, especially if you also have students you are NOT friends with. You definitely shouldn't be trying for romantic relationships with them.
Trying to pull off the friend thing outside of official functions is just asking for trouble.
What do you make of Ellefson's claim in his email about Fralick's actions that he misinterpreted? That kind of behavior is completely inappropriate, too. Again, that's if we choose to believe what he wrote.
The whole situation was messed up, as far as I'm concerned. At least it didn't go any further than it did.
Last edited by harrisonreed on Thu Feb 20, 2025 5:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Well...I question what kind of authority we actually have "over" students. It's certainly not the same thing as the military. And we're not their employers. If anything I work for my students, not the other way around.
I get that the perception and the reality are very often not the same thing. But I do think personal relationships are important.
She was 21. He was in his forties - actually it occurs to me that it doesn't matter how old they were - and a teacher at the seminar she was attending and a school she was probably looking at for graduate studies. He should not have put his hand on her leg, he should not have followed her into the bathroom, and he shouldn't have sent multiple emails trying to meet up with her and suggesting that they should ignore societal norms.
It was HIS responsibility not to escalate any flirtation that may or may not have happened.
GabrielRice wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 5:16 pm
Well...I question what kind of authority we actually have "over" students. It's certainly not the same thing as the military. And we're not their employers. If anything I work for my students, not the other way around.
I get that the perception and the reality are very often not the same thing. But I do think personal relationships are important.
Any position where you can exert influence, power, or authority over another person would qualify as such in my personal opinion. In the case professor and student, the issue isn’t ‘authority’ as much as it is that there is a direct impact on the students future academic career depending upon a professor’s influence. That relationship can affect the students grades or reputation. It can create the potential for a ‘quid pro quo’ relationship in a very inappropriate way. That is why the boundaries are important.
From a leadership perspective, in a para-military setting, Sergeants have people whom they supervise, they do not employee them, but they are subordinates. In this setting, the sergeant takes care of his people, makes sure they have what they need in terms of gear, training, and necessities which makes them technically working for their people, but at the end of the day, when they are given orders, obedience is required. Building a small amount of a personal relationship does help with commitment, but there always must exist a boundary which sets supervisors apart from subordinates, which I believe is applicable in a student teacher relationship as long as that student is under the direction of that teacher.
Although in principle I wish I could adopt Harrison's position, I'm with Gabe here. After-parties at the end of semesters, or after workshops or concerts are always going to happen, and I would argue they are an integral part of the very important social aspect of building a career as a musician, because they are occasions to build a rapport with your future colleagues (which both your fellow students and your teachers are). Like it or not, people hire colleagues that are fun to hang out with. Nobody wants to play a tour or a week-long festival with colleagues they can't stand socially. The freelance world is not about who plays best. It's about contacts, being fun to be around in addition to being good enough for the work. Because ultimately we play better when we have a good connection with our colleagues.
Studying music is also not like in a lot of other fields, in that it is extremely common to be colleagues with your teachers at the same time you study with them. I hire my students to play with me or give out their names for projects I'm asked to recommend people for. When we're out on a professional gig and people go have dinner after rehearsal, am I supposed to not invite my colleagues because they're also my students? Or ignore them when we're out of rehearsal? Or should I not be giving them work in the first place? I have a student with whom I had already played several times on tour and become friends a couple years before she was my student. I'm not going to just pretend we're not also friends. That would be weird. Same during my own studies, I studied with someone, and after I left and went to study with her own former teacher, we became frequent colleagues and good friends. When that older teacher retired, she won the job to replace him where I was now studying, so she once again became my teacher. Was she supposed to refuse the job? Or kick me out of the school? Or pretend we didn't already know each other for five years at that point and weren't regularly playing professionally together? These kinds of situations are not at all infrequent in this field.
So, yeah, socializing with students is not really avoidable. The important part is that there be solid boundaries.
In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.
Maximilien Brisson www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 6:19 pm
In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.
"Yes but you were friends with Steve, professor, and he got a better grade than I did. That's completely unfair. "
It's about perception, not your own assessment of your impartiality. You could be 100% correct about it, but it doesn't matter if someone sees something else.
It sucks, and I have to turn down hang outs all the time in my career field because of it. I just have friends outside my career.
trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.
LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 6:19 pm
In terms of being able to grade people, I thoroughly disagree. A good teacher is not basing their teaching or their grading on whether they like their student or not, or on friendship. You grade the performance in front of you. You teach what the student needs to learn. Whether you socialize or not, your rapport with each student is going to be unique and different. That's true of any teaching, but obviously even moreso in the context of one-on-one instruction and mentorship. You just don't grade based on that, again, because you set boundaries.
"Yes but you were friends with Steve, professor, and he got a better grade than I did. That's completely unfair. "
It's about perception, not your own assessment of your impartiality. You could be 100% correct about it, but it doesn't matter if someone sees something else.
It sucks, and I have to turn down hang outs all the time in my career field because of it. I just have friends outside my career.
That perception problem does exist of course and that's why it's important to have boundaries, to demonstrate fairness, be generous with your time and experience, and to constantly demonstrate that you have your students' learning and best interests at heart no matter the interpersonal dynamics and whether you get along or not. But I think some of the responsibility has to also lie on the student's shoulders, to have the maturity to understand that every relationship is different. There are some who no matter how detached you tried to be from everyone, would still find a way to see partiality and unfairness, and that's just out of my control. We also don't just give grades. Exams are typically in front of a jury of 2-4 people, and the grade is discussed with the student and explained as transparently and comprehensively as possible. What the student is doing well is highlighted, as well as avenues for improvement.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying oh yeah, let's become good friends with our students and hang out outside of school all the time. There's a difference between being friends, on the one hand, and on the other just going to have a meal all together after a class concert, or when on a professional gig together outside of the school context, doing the normal things that any colleagues on a gig routinely do like going for coffee during breaks or having some lunch or dinner together after rehearsals or concerts (if you're suggesting professionals who aren't students shouldn't do this either when on gigs, and all make sure they go eat on their own and not talk outside of rehearsal, we'll that just ain't happening. Of course they will. And as long as we do that, if I'm giving work to my students I'm going to encourage them to integrate socially in the workplace, not try push them away and isolate them). So I'm not actively becoming friends with my students and I think that's an important boundary to have. But yes, it can and does happen that you end up in a teacher-student relationship with someone you're already friends with (and then you can't just pretend that you're not), or that you have a different, friendlier relationship with someone who's studied with you for 4 years than with a new student who's been there five minutes. I think the rules you suggest would be great, but because of the nature of the field it's pretty much impossible to have them.
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:36 pm
trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.
Exactly this. Also, I find the teaching is at its best when it's not about imparting knowledge down from a high pedestal, and more about exploring together the music, the technique, what works for you, or for them, and why. That's when I learned the best as a student, and that's when I feel my teaching is at its best now. Putting up walls and elevating oneself as some kind of higher, removed figure is not conducive to this.
Last edited by LeTromboniste on Fri Feb 21, 2025 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
Maximilien Brisson www.maximilienbrisson.com
Lecturer for baroque trombone,
Hfk Bremen/University of the Arts Bremen
Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Feb 20, 2025 9:36 pm
trombone teaching is more like mentoring or apprenticeship in a lot of ways rather than a hierarchy. You can't ignore the two-way relationship and respect in both directions.
Exactly this. Also, I find the teaching is at its best when it's not about imparting knowledge down from a high pedestal, and more about exploring together the music, the technique, what works for you, or for them, and why. That's when I learned the best as a student, and that's when I feel my teaching is at its best now. Putting up walls and elevating oneself as some kind of higher, removed figure is not conducive to this.
YES!!!
And often that perception of the teacher as some sort of all-knowing guru who can make or break a student's career is the very dynamic that leads to abuses.
