King 2b Liberty, info on bore size variations.

[ibell]

Hi all, got my hands on a couple of old king's to try (and buy) a '92 3b silver sonic and what I think, going by serial numbers, is a '56 2b Liberty. I read on another thread here that 2b's became dual bore after 1938 but I'm sure this isn't as fits if I flip outer slide upsidedown. Think I saw a YouTube clip that mentioned 60's was when they became dual. Just wondering which is correct and would that mean both inners are .481 It sounds quite different to my regular small horn (6h) and has a very small bell but it's growing on me. Is there a general preference for the dual or an era or set up most sought after?
Any info and general thought appreciated, Cheers.

[ibell]

Hi all, got my hands on a couple of old king's to try (and buy) a '92 3b silver sonic and what I think, going by serial numbers, is a '56 2b Liberty. I read on another thread here that 2b's became dual bore after 1938 but I'm sure this isn't as fits if I flip outer slide upsidedown. Think I saw a YouTube clip that mentioned 60's was when they became dual. Just wondering which is correct and would that mean both inners are .481 It sounds quite different to my regular small horn (6h) and has a very small bell but it's growing on me. Is there a general preference for the dual or an era or set up most sought after?
Any info and general thought appreciated, Cheers.

[Estraven]

The 2B Liberty inner slide tubes have the same outside diameter, but have different (by 0.010”) inside diameters. The difference is hard to see, but can be easily heard; tap the inner tubes with a fingernail, and you’ll hear the difference in the tubes’ notes due to the different wall thicknesses.

The mouthpiece-side inner tube is 0.481” i.d, the other is 0.491”.

There are other versions of the 2B that are single-bore, I’ll leave it to others to discuss those.

[BGuttman]

You can't check dual bore on a 2B by flipping the slide. Inner tubes have the same Outside Diameter but different Inside Diameter.

The non-dual was called Liberty. The Dual Bore 2B Liberty dates from around 1935.

Recently there was a single bore 2B meaning size, not dual bore that was designed for Jiggs Whigham.

If you really have a 1956 2B it will have a rather extensive engraving and a fair amount of lacquer loss (it's nearly 75 years old, after all). If it's neat and clean, King rolled over serial numbers from 999999 to 100000 in the late 1990s.

[Briande]

My guess is your 1956 isn’t a 1956 given the serial number switch. But if it says “2B” on a horn pre Jiggs 2B (pre-1990s?) it’s dual bore. That’s literally what “2B” originally stood for to differentiate it from the plain “liberty” which was single bore. If you can post bell pictures of what you believe to be a 1956 horn that would help verify that.

[ibell]

Thanks for the info all. Seems like it is a dual bore based on all your info and closer inspection of inner slides. I used to have a dual in a another brand and outer slides where marginally different (so couldn't flip). It was this YouTube clip - from the excellent Paul the trombonist that around 50 sec in gives a bore size history which I might have miss understood. Based on Bell engraving/size, serial number 3435##, case and laquer wear I'm certain it's a '55 to '59 2b in very good condition.
The info that 2b literally means 2 bores makes sense however as 3b's 4b's etc aren't it didn't occur to me. Cheers Ian

[BGuttman]

His bore size info is a little off. The 2B Liberty was the first .481/.491 instrument (1938).

[Posaunus]

from the "excellent" Paul the trombonist that around 50 sec in gives a bore size history which I might have miss understood.

You didn't misunderstand - you were misinformed. Paul was just blowing smoke and making up "facts" - he does not know the history of the King 2B. From the get-go in 1938 the model 2B was dual-bore (0.481"/0.491"), and the name reflected its 2 bores. There was no bore change in 1963 - Paul just made that up!

They did later add a single-bore Jiggs Whighsm model to the 2B family, but that was introduced much more recently.

You are right to be confused about the other "B" models, since the 3B, 4B, etc. are not dual bore.

[ibell]

Thanks all for the great info, bought both! Join my '63 6h, I'm a sucker for old horns but all will be used.

[JohnL]

There was no bore change in 1963 - Paul just made that up!

Which is a bit odd, as the information is right there on the hnwhite.com website for all to see:
https://www.hnwhite.com/trombonepage
Although King's habit of listing a single bore size in their catalogs could certainly lead to some confusion.

You are right to be confused about the other "B" models, since the 3B, 4B, etc. are not dual bore.

Now that's disappointing. I'd really like to see an octuple bore slide.

[Posaunus]

There was no bore change in 1963 - Paul just made that up!

Which is a bit odd, as the information is right there on the hnwhite.com website for all to see:
https://www.hnwhite.com/trombonepage

Paul's an interesting guy, and a pretty good trombone player, but he's not a trained reporter. If he has no factual information, he's not reluctant to speculate or make things up.

[PACHACUTEC]

file:///D:/Downloads/king%20liberty.jpg

HELLO FRIENDS, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS THREAD, COULD YOU HELP ME WITH THIS LOGO, TO WHAT PERIOD DOES IT APPROXIMATELY BELONG? IT IS FOR SALE ONLINE, THE SELLER DOES NOT KNOW IF IT IS DUAL BORE, I DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS DUAL BORE, BUT I REALLY WANT A DUAL BORE?

[BGuttman]

file:///D:/Downloads/king%20liberty.jpg

HELLO FRIENDS, TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THIS THREAD, COULD YOU HELP ME WITH THIS LOGO, TO WHAT PERIOD DOES IT APPROXIMATELY BELONG? IT IS FOR SALE ONLINE, THE SELLER DOES NOT KNOW IF IT IS DUAL BORE, I DO NOT KNOW IF IT IS DUAL BORE, BUT I REALLY WANT A DUAL BORE?

You have apparently pointed to a file local to your computer, which means we can't see it. Where is the picture online? Point us to the ad.

Note that almost any King 2B is dual bore. The single bore version is usually labeled "Liberty" and does not include the 2B on the bell.

[PACHACUTEC]

Mr. BGuttman, it seems that with his comment he has cleared up my doubt, the engraving on the bell is KING 2B Liberty made in USA, I attach the link

https://www.ebay.com/itm/226142595453?_ ... R4rc4pjdZA

[silverbone57]

Does anyone know what year the King 2B Plus was introduced? Thanks.

[BGuttman]

Does anyone know what year the King 2B Plus was introduced? Thanks.

1980s if memory serves

Bell will have the number 2115 on it.

[TheFilthOfFrank]

Hey, I'm going to take advantage of this thread. I have a silvertone from around this era. I'll attach photos for reference. Any info you all can give me would be appreciated!

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[BGuttman]

Non-matching serials, so there has been some parts swapping. All serials are <200000, so we're talking 1930s.

Bell is not engraved "2B" so it came from a single bore horn

I'd measure the inside of the inner slide tubes at the stocking end with calipers. If they are different, the slide is dual bore. If they are the same it's single bore. Note that the outside of both tubes will measure the same.

[silverbone57]

[quote=BGuttman post_id=263103 time=1735886357 user_id=53]
[quote=silverbone57 post_id=263090 time=1735873989 user_id=7840]
Does anyone know what year the King 2B Plus was introduced? Thanks.
[/quote]
1980s if memory serves

Bell will have the number 2115 on it.
[/quote]

Thank you.

[TheFilthOfFrank]

Non-matching serials, so there has been some parts swapping. All serials are <200000, so we're talking 1930s.

Bell is not engraved "2B" so it came from a single bore horn

I'd measure the inside of the inner slide tubes at the stocking end with calipers. If they are different, the slide is dual bore. If they are the same it's single bore. Note that the outside of both tubes will measure the same.

The slide is single bore. Interesting. I don't think the horn is a standard silvertone model though because of the weird specs.

[BGuttman]

Silvertone refers to the bell. You can have a 2B Silvertone, a Liberty Silvertone, or any of the earlier models from 1920 on as a Silvertone. After around `1950 the name changes to Silver Sonic after a trademark dispute with Sears over the name (King lost).

[officermayo]

You can't check dual bore on a 2B by flipping the slide. Inner tubes have the same Outside Diameter but different Inside Diameter.

The non-dual was called Liberty. The Dual Bore 2B Liberty dates from around 1935.

Recently there was a single bore 2B meaning size, not dual bore that was designed for Jiggs Whigham.

If you really have a 1956 2B it will have a rather extensive engraving and a fair amount of lacquer loss (it's nearly 75 years old, after all). If it's neat and clean, King rolled over serial numbers from 999999 to 100000 in the late 1990s.

I have a 1940 Liberty (no 2B on the bell) that's dual bore. Flipping the slide won't allow the outer to be (see what I did there?) put back on. Serial numbers on bell and slide match so I wondering if I have some odd horn.

[captain]

So, if it doesn't specifically have "2B" engraved somewhere on it, it cannot be a 2B? I have what is supposedly a 1938 SilverTone 2B, but there's no 2B on it. :-/

I thought my engraving was pretty, but TheFilthOfFrank's puts mine to shame. GORGEOUS horn there, TheFilthOfFrank. <3 Although, I am partial to my copper colored bits over the standard golden colored brass.

[silverbone57]

Hi Captain, maybe you have an early 1938 Silver tone Liberty model bell section there. Is your hand slide actually a traditional King 2B dual bore slide? If yes, then I would guess the bell section may have been spun prior to the addition of the "2B" engraving on later silver tone Liberty model bells. I once owned a late 1936 King 2B Silver tone, and the bell flare didn't have a gold wash on the inside. In fact, the thickness of the sterling bell stem and flare seemed to be thinner than a 1938 silver tone that I also owned. In 1938 they were still producing the straight Liberty model silver tones, too.

[TheFilthOfFrank]

So, if it doesn't specifically have "2B" engraved somewhere on it, it cannot be a 2B? I have what is supposedly a 1938 SilverTone 2B, but there's no 2B on it. :-/

I thought my engraving was pretty, but TheFilthOfFrank's puts mine to shame. GORGEOUS horn there, TheFilthOfFrank. <3 Although, I am partial to my copper colored bits over the standard golden colored brass.

It's a very special horn. The slide has soldered on tubes and it still moves like a modern slide with trombotine!

[captain]

I use Yamaha snot on all of my slides, including these, but I may have to get some Trumbotine to figure out if that will work better, since a lot of people here seem to think that it does.

I haven’t pulled out my calipers, but when I take the slide off and look up into the inner slide tubes of the SILVERTONE, the mouthpiece side seems to have an ever so slightly smaller ID. It looks exactly the same as my ~1965 SILVERSONIC (properly emblazoned) 2B’s inner tubes.

FWIW, HNWhite co. Insists that it is a 2B. I just find it odd that it would be a 2B yet not be marked “2B“, since the “dual bore” was supposedly such a big deal that they monikered it as such.
PS: (see previous photo) it’s also NOT marked “liberty”.

[captain]

Upon closer inspection, I notice that the inside of the supposedly “solid sterling silver” bell looks COPPER!

Have I been duped?!


On the other hand, looking up into the other one, it’s “solid Sterling silver bell”, also seems to turn into copper about 8 inches up into it. Maybe the “Bell“ is redefined by HnWhite as “only that final flaring bit, and not the entire 20 inches of Flare from the tuning slide to the end of the trombone”…???

[captain]

“1965 King 2B SILVERTONE” seems to also turn to copper about 6” up into the bell.

Please note that this one has a “gold wash“ on the inside of the lower part of the bell flare, which is why it looks brass instead of silver.

[BGuttman]

A true Silvertone or Silver Sonic will have the Sterling mark (£) on the bell stem.

A quick demonstration of King dual bore is to place a mouthpiece in the end of the inner slide tubes. It should go in different amounts between top and bottom.