What is the benefit of mouthpiece pressure?

[tbdana]

I’ve been pretty consistent here advocating that, for me at least, the least possible amount of mouthpiece pressure should be used, and no more than necessary to maintain a seal. It has been my position that everything important happens before the mouthpiece, that the instrument is merely an amplifier, and any additional pressure beyond that necessary to keep air from leaking out all over the place is detrimental.

But other people have said they disagree with me. They say that mouthpiece pressure is helpful. People have even advised me to use more mouthpiece pressure.

So that I can understand where the school of thought is coming from, can people in favor of mouthpiece pressure please explain 1. What function, additional mouthpiece pressure serves, and 2. What benefit additional mouthpiece pressure gives to one’s playing.

I get that there are as many valid approaches as there are people, but I’d like to get kind of a survey of people’s thinking who advocate more pressure.

Thanks.

[BrassSection]

Just my take, on every horn from trumpet to tuba my pressure is minimal on lower notes and increases on higher notes, but not enough pressure so that after an hour of playing I have a mouthpiece impression on my lips like I’ve seen on some players. Even on higher notes I wouldn’t rate pressure any higher than medium.

Benefits of pressure…maintains a seal for me, no side of the mouth blowouts. I have found after extended trombone playing, over an hour of constant playing, I do feel a blowout coming on occasionally. Solution, switch to trumpet for a song or two. (That’s a benefit of playing without music, I can be the brass orchestrator and arranger.)

[tbdana]

Just my take, on every horn from trumpet to tuba my pressure is minimal on lower notes and increases on higher notes, but not enough pressure so that after an hour of playing I have a mouthpiece impression on my lips like I’ve seen on some players. Even on higher notes I wouldn’t rate pressure any higher than medium.

Benefits of pressure…maintains a seal for me, no side of the mouth blowouts. I have found after extended trombone playing, over an hour of constant playing, I do feel a blowout coming on occasionally. Solution, switch to trumpet for a song or two. (That’s a benefit of playing without music, I can be the brass orchestrator and arranger.)

Thank you for the answer. If I could get a little more clarification, please.

I already talked about maintaining a seal, so let’s forget that part. Other than maintaining a seal, what benefits do you get from more mouth pace pressure?

And what is Side of the mouth blowout? I’m not familiar with that. Is it something other than just leaking air? It sounds like it, because you say it separately from maintaining a seal.

[NotSkilledHere]

I think that the least pressure you can use to achieve the note you want is best. obviously put enough pressure so that just moving your slide doesnt somehow dislodge and break seal, but also dont be putting so much pressure that you are in danger of shoving it through the back of your head.

I think there is a range of acceptable mp pressure and it varies from person to person, note to note, mp to mp.

To be honest, I think the better question is when does the pressure go from "acceptable/appropriate" pressure to "too much pressure"? At which point do we say that is starting to become too much pressure? and i think going OW is already far too much pressure. is it when you can feel yourself physically trying to shove the mp further into your lips to achieve a note?

[Doug Elliott]

Stability.
If you're not using "enough" pressure AND not holding the horn still, it tends to bounce a lot and cause various issues. A stable relationship needs to be maintained between the mouthpiece and your teeth, which is the real "foundation" of the embouchure.
Instability of one sort or another is the cause of most chop problems.

[BrassSection]

Blowout locally is referred to when your lips start leaking air between the mouthpiece and the corner of your lips. Increased pressure does help me with higher notes, bass clef basically above the staff, trumpet also above the staff. Volume wise, no difference noticeable for me in pressure requirements. French horn is the odd ball…very little pressure difference low to high. Maybe somebody more technically trained can explain that one. Other than the baritone in my school daze, all the horns I play on are self taught.

[BrassSection]

In the trumpet world I’ve heard of instructors hanging a trumpet and student plays without holding the horn. Tall tale???

[AtomicClock]

Why can trumpet players play higher than us?
They can pull with BOTH hands.

[harrisonreed]

In the trumpet world I’ve heard of instructors hanging a trumpet and student plays without holding the horn. Tall tale???

Nah this has been done. It's a worthless exercise, though

[tbdana]

Why can trumpet players play higher than us?
They can pull with BOTH hands.

[musicofnote]

Take 1: There are no benefits. Example, the trumpet player who walks up to a trumpet hanging from the lamp and plays 4 octaves. If you can't do that, you have no business playing anything except maybe whistling.

Take 2: Don't worry about it. As long as the lips don't bleed and it sounds good, it is good. If they bleed, it only means, they and therefore you are out of shape. No gain without pain.

[robcat2075]

This is a topic for which discussions are hobbled by the lack of any useful metrics with which to compare results. All we have are outward appearances.

Take 1: There are no benefits. Example, the trumpet player who walks up to a trumpet hanging from the lamp and plays 4 octaves.

I've opined before that brass pedagogy mostly just slogans and anecdotes. This is one of those anecdotes except the story is usually about Herbert L. Clarke and the trumpet is hung from the ceiling.

[izMadman]

Some people find that a bit more pressure helps with stability, endurance, or hitting higher notes, especially if their embouchure isn’t fully developed yet. But too much pressure can also cause tension and limit flexibility.

[musicofnote]

Take 1: There are no benefits. Example, the trumpet player who walks up to a trumpet hanging from the lamp and plays 4 octaves.

I've opined before that brass pedagogy mostly just slogans and anecdotes. This is one of those anecdotes except the story is usually about Herbert L. Clarke and the trumpet is hung from the ceiling.
[/quote]

One of the weaknesses of the internet is, that irony/sarcasm don't come over well. Not even if you look at BOTH takes and not just the one.

Having said that, there are numerous reports of take Nr. 1, for example of it being SOP at the Moscow Conservatory. I won't link to the gentleman saying that, 'cause it's hearsay, anyway. "Kernel of truth" argument? Maybe. I do remember having seen a demonstration of the "hanging from the ceiling and walking up to the horn and playing up to c and above". But that was decades ago, when I actually cared. To paraphrase something said in the science world "One's inability to find a video on YouTube of something is no argument against it."

As to take Nr. 2 - we only have to browse the postings here to read the "for and agin's" of that one. Which, considering the extremes of both positions, was grounds enough for me to list the two of them, one after the other. Now, having written that, there still will be people swearing to goD almighty that the one or the other is absolutely true. Which I find exceedingly .... cute But that's just me.

[LeTromboniste]

I used too much pressure when I was 17 to 19-20 after having had braces since my second year of playing and needed to quickly be play at the same level, and taking on some bad habits in the process. When I corrected it I initially overcorrected and started using too little pressure. There is such a thing. Things become more unstable.

There are a few things I notice in players who use too little pressure either overall or in certain ranges. To compensate for it they sometimes reach in with the lips to create the seal and end up having a pinched, small sound. I don't know if Doug would agree, but my feeling is that too much pressure can allow you to get away with playing way too open, but too little pressure can force you to play too small. Both of those are problems. And in terms of the instability, aside from the issue Doug raised with things being physically unstable and bouncing around, I observe it in a different way as well. It is very visible to me in sackbut players because of the instrument and mouthpiece geometry, which create bigger variation of resistance between different ranges and different slide positions than on modern trombones. I find that players who use too little pressure typically struggle in the low range, and in far out positions, where there is most resistance, because there, the backpressure can be enough to disturb their embouchure, making tone, response and articulations unstable and unreliable. They might also often struggle more with changing "against the grain".

[blast]

Okay, here I go, for what it's worth.....
Nearly everyone uses an excess of pressure when they begin, especially as they try to play higher. As muscles develop, they should back off this excess of pressure, but many continue to push the mouthpiece on as a habit, and it is very hard to break, as I remember well. I have found this excess of pressure to be the biggest factor holding my students back from tone and register development over the years. Enough to form a seal and stop the instrument and mouthpiece moving around. As you go higher and muscles firm up, more pressure is required but don't overdo it.

[harrisonreed]

dizzy-gillespie-the-ambassador-of-jazz.jpg

You must use at least this much pressure!

[Wilktone]

Joe Barbenel, John Booth Davies and Patrick Kenny are researchers in the fields of psychology and bioengineering. They are also amateur trumpet players. Some of the things their trumpet teacher was telling them didn't make sense to them, so they decided to test out conventional wisdom regarding mouthpiece pressure.

A Psychological Investigation of the Role of Mouthpiece Force in Trumpet Performance

Abstract
Amongst beginning trumpet players, signs of physical stress are frequently observed especially when the player attempts to explore the higher register of the instrument. Preliminary interviews with teachers of trumpet revealed a general concern about development of an easy and relaxed playing style, and with the reduction of mouthpiece-to-lip forces to a low or minimal level. An apocryphal story amongst many trumpet players concerns individuals who can, reputedly, produce double-high Cs on an instrument merely suspended by a couple of strings. The present research programme investigated the physical, psychological and psychophysical manifestations of mouthpiece force amongst groups of trumpet players of different degrees of skill. Our results in fact differ rather sharply from the introspections of trumpet pedagogues. All players, skilled and less skilled, used varying but substantial amounts of force; less-skilled players could not be differentiated from skilled performers in terms of forces used; and skilled players were no better than less skilled (or in some cases unskilled) subjects at the task of judging how much force was being used (a) by themselves, and (b) by other players, all judgements being prone to considerable error.

Their scholarly article above is behind a paywall. They also wrote an article about this for a lay audience that was published in New Scientist that I originally found on Google Books (which is no longer accessible). I wrote up some takeaways on my blog here.

Some things I found interesting:

1. When they saw how much mouthpiece pressure the professional players were using they originally thought their equipment was malfunctioning, it was so much.

2. We're terrible at judging how much mouthpiece pressure a player is using. The professional players were interpreted as using less force against the lips because they looked more relaxed while playing.

In my personal experiences teaching, I see too little mouthpiece pressure more often than too much. Often when a student complains of using too much mouthpiece pressure what I actually see is they aren't firming their lips properly in the first place. Excessive mouthpiece pressure is generally a symptom of something else not working correctly. Fix that issue and the excessive pressure can go away on its own.

Dave

[JTeagarden]

Sometimes you'll see players who don't seem to have a whole lot going on in terms of facial movement outside of the mouthpiece while they play, Burgerbob is one such example.

Other players seems to have whole lot taking place outside the mouthpiece when they play, and to me it looks like a trainwreck waiting to happen.

But the trainwreck doesn't ever seem to happen, and there doesn't seem to be much correlation between what I perceive as physical effort (from Burgerbob seemingly using little physical effort to play up and down the horn, to a player who seems like things are about to collapse on them), and their results.

[Wilktone]

I don't think it's necessarily how much facial movement is going on, but whether or not it is the correct kind for the individual musician. There will always be some pushing and pulling of the mouthpiece and lips together along the teeth and gums underneath, for example. And sometimes that is very slight and sometimes it is very noticeable, it depends on the individual (and probably their stage of development). On the other hand, if the corners are moving around a lot, that's probably not a good thing at all for any player.

Here are some examples.



It's not hard to find players with too much facial movement and/or in the wrong kind who play great. We can all get better at playing wrong. It can work well for them - until it doesn't. The train wreck might take some time before it manifests, but I think it's better to make the corrections in advance, even if it is seemingly working.

[Kbiggs]

The trumpet player at 0:59 in this video looks like they use an einstzen embouchure, an old German style of horn playing.

[Cmillar]

'No pressure, no sound'

That was the signature of 'The Sheriff', who used to post on this forum.

I believe he was from Chicago? Anyone know what happened to him / what he's doing? Still alive and playing?

[BGuttman]

The problem was with the old "smile and press" embouchure that was popular in the early 20th Century. It messed with flexibility and often needed a lot of additional pressure for high range. Some pressure is needed, but excessive is a problem. What is the exact value? Nobody seems to have published it.

[Savio]

I would say as little pressure as possible. There is no benefit of pressure.

Leif

[Doug Elliott]

I'll give you a challenge.
Have someone else hold your horn - take your hands off of it - and play. Go up and down the harmonics in 1st position, play parts of Tuba Mirum, do some tonguing, play loud.
That will give you, and the person holding your horn, a real idea of how much pressure you actually use.

Let us know what you find out.

I asked Dana to do that when she first started posting here and I'm sure she never did it.

And do the reverse - you hold somebody else's horn while they play.

[Savio]

Ok, tried it. Very uncomfortable, and you dont get the right angle so I stick the head out to reach. Not right angle sideways either so very uncomfortable. Tried it for 10 seconds because its nearly impossible to play. And ok, when I hold the horn my self I noticed its perfect and little more pressure above high F. So not too much and not too little then? Is there really some players with too little pressure out there?

Leif

[harrisonreed]

Yes, too little pressure gives you a diffuse sound and leaks out the corners. There are lots of players that do this

[StevenHolloway]

In my lesson with Alessi he told me there is a natural increase of mouthpiece pressure in the upper register.

[GGJazz]

Hi folks.

In my opinion too , we need some mpc pressure , for the reasons Doug Elliott wrote above.

I think that one can check this topic without the horn also , just with the mpc alone , creating a situation where the mpc cannot be moved.

You can close your hand , as in a fist , around the circumference of the cup , just after the rim' collar.
This way , there will be a couple of cm left between the shank' end and your hand' palm end ( on the little finger side). Be careful to leave the bore open , not plugged by your hand/ fingers .

Then , rest your fist against a wall , keeping it firm , and place your lips on the mpc. Now , without moving your hand at all from this position , buzz into the mpc: you will notice that , as you ascend on high range , or you blow louder , you will get gradually closer and closer to the mpc.
So , you "press" your face against the mpc ; that can be seen as the opposite ( pressing the mpc against your lips) .
Anyway , this can be the right amount of pressure that you need to perform .

I like to think of myself as going against the horn , gradually getting closer to it , rather than thinking of me pushing the horn against me ..
Basically , it is the same thing , just from a different point of wiew !

Regards
Giancarlo

[Wilktone]

To paraphrase something said in the science world "One's inability to find a video on YouTube of something is no argument against it."

Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence is how it's usually expressed. On the other hand, that which is stated without evidence can usually be dismissed without evidence.



I tried this too, with both a trumpet and my p-bone. Similar results, it's just not possible to get a good tone or play with any range without pressure.

The trumpet player at 0:59 in this video looks like they use an einstzen embouchure, an old German style of horn playing.

Yes, but that wasn't intentional for him. He had a breakdown of his chops and by the time I took that video had basically quit playing (he was going to write a paper on embouchure dystonia instead of playing a senior recital). About a year earlier he had lessons from someone whose instructions were to start blowing even before placing the mouthpiece. I'm not sure if he misinterpreted the instructions somewhat, but that's why he's not firming his lips until after he's already set the mouthpiece and started blowing. And of course if you're setting on the inner membrane of your lips (very sensitive to pressure) you can't use a sufficient amount of mouthpiece pressure to play.

In my opinion that trumpet players difficulties were directly caused by a former teacher of his changing his embouchure from upstream to downstream. I think that if he were to switch back to how he was playing before and learned to firm, set, then blow that he could have returned to playing.

The problem was with the old "smile and press" embouchure that was popular in the early 20th Century. It messed with flexibility and often needed a lot of additional pressure for high range

One of the problems with a smile embouchure is that it stretches and thins the lips, which make them more sensitive to pressure. Perhaps it also requires more pressure to use. My thought is that it's not so much the pressure itself that is the problem with the smile embouchure, but that the lip position isn't sufficiently firmed to accept a normal amount of playing pressure.

What is the exact value? Nobody seems to have published it.

There are publications, but since it's more precise to describe mouthpiece "pressure" as "force" you'll need to search for that term instead.

Start here. Many are behind paywalls, but I have already downloaded a number of them. Brevard College isn't a Tier I research institution so I don't have access to a lot of academic journals, but their library will try to get me copies of things if they can. Sometimes there is a fee involved.

Have someone else hold your horn - take your hands off of it - and play.

I'll see if I can try this out this weekend and video record it. Might be good for laughs.

In my lesson with Alessi he told me there is a natural increase of mouthpiece pressure in the upper register.

Yes. Also when we play louder.

There are a couple of devices that you can find that you attach to your instrument that purport to help players reduce mouthpiece pressure, but I can't honestly endorse them. Too much mouthpiece pressure is basically a symptom of something else not working properly and if you don't fix the underlying issue then reducing pressure only covers it up.

Dave

[AtomicClock]

There are a couple of devices that you can find that you attach to your instrument that purport to help players reduce mouthpiece pressure, but I can't honestly endorse them.

Are there accessories to simply MEASURE the pressure? That could be very interesting.

[AtomicClock]

Yesterday, I was practicing my trigger range and bemoaning its perpetual impotency. Things instantly got a lot better when, for the first time, I tried increasing pressure on the lower lip. Time will tell (I've convinced myself I found *the answer* several times now), but I'm optimistic.

[Wilktone]

Are there accessories to simply MEASURE the pressure? That could be very interesting.

As far as I know, none that are commercially available. If you look through the link of papers and articles on Google Scholar I posted above you can read up on how the researchers measured mouthpiece forces. Theoretically one should be able to follow their methodology and put together one of your own.

Yesterday, I was practicing my trigger range and bemoaning its perpetual impotency. Things instantly got a lot better when, for the first time, I tried increasing pressure on the lower lip. Time will tell (I've convinced myself I found *the answer* several times now), but I'm optimistic.

It's usually a good idea to put more pressure on the lower lip in general, but for many players bringing the horn angle down/more pressure on the lower lip to ascend is correct. Some players will be opposite, that's a personal detail.

Dave