Big horn for a small student?

[ttf_quiethorn]

I've been giving lessons to a daughter of one of my wife's friends. The daughter is in 8th grade. I've been giving her lessons for almost 2 years. I don't have a music degree and have never had any other students, so I was doing lessons for free at first. But she got into one of the lower youth symphony orchestras last year, so they insisted they start paying me a few bucks

She's always had a really stuffy tone and pinched, strained range up to F/F#, her highest notes. At first she was on a rental Bach Aristocrat piece of junk. The were looking to replace the horn anyway and buy her one, so we settled on a Yamaha 200AD, which is apparently a Yamaha 354. She sounded noticeably better on it and as importantly felt better on it. That was about a year ago.

This year she got into a slightly higher youth orchestra, so that's good. But she still has a generally stuffy tone and her range hasn't really increased. She can pinch out a G sometimes. I have her using the Yamaha 48 mouthpiece that came with her horn; roughly the equivalent of a 6.5AL, I think?

Anyway, today we were trying some things, and I had her play my Getzen 3047AF to see what would happen (Faxx 6.5AL-L mouthpiece). Despite it being heavy for her, instantly her sound was better, she was less pinched on the F, could hit G more consistently. So now I'm wondering... should she be on a .547 horn? She's physically small, and I push back in general against what her mom has heard from random people about her needing a "professional trombone" (i.e., large bore) now that she's moved up in the youth orchestras.

I could have her try a .525 horn, but I don't have one, and music stores tend not to carry them. But if we got her a .547 horn (her mom is open to the spending the money), could this backfire somehow? Could it solve her stuffiness and pinched range but open up other worse problems?

[ttf_BGuttman]

If she sounds better on the bigger horn, get the bigger horn.  I know a rather petite lady who has the biggest bass trombone sound you could imagine.  Has nothing to do with size.

[ttf_Full Pedal Trombonist]

I second that. Use what works ( and that is also appropriate for the musical context). Taking age and experience out of the equation I’ve known physically small players have monster sound and some even played monster instruments: really heavy tenors or super open basses.

I would go about it by discerning the difference between “professional” and large bore. Professional instruments being ones that professionals play and a large bore, by modern standards, being .547” for the most part. Matt Neiss is a professional and his horn is far from .547 

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

My two cents on this : pinched sound and difficulty playing in the high range are not the result of the equipment she uses (plenty of people don't sound pinched and have a good high range on a 354...), but of how she's playing. She probably hasn't figured out the airflow yet. That's what you should get her to work on before thinking of horns. Nothing wrong with getting larger horn per se, but by making her sound better, it just compensates and hides issues in her playing that she'll still have, ultimately making both her learning and your teaching harder.

[ttf_pizzaman]

Her sound issue with small bore horns is probably due to underdeveloped chops. I think I would recommend several months of playing long tones instead of a larger horn.

[ttf_Matt K]

If people ca play tuba at that age then certainly they can play a large bore. It would be one thing if she sounded similar on it... But she doesn't. I see no reason why she should do things the harder way for her. It might not totally be the bore either. The YSL is heavy. The getzen has fairly middle of the road specs. If you put her on a lighter weight 508 or 525 she's probably find it easier than the Yamaha. If she's anything like me though, and I've seen some younger students like this, she could go bigger on the rim and gain focus. As heretical as that might seem. I let a few students try a Bach3G when I was doing my
Student teaching a few years ago. Two of them immediately sounded better in every way including stamina. Several didn't. But there was no reason to keep them on Yamaha 48 pieces other than tradition so they switched and were really happy with the result s

[ttf_Matt K]

Also, check out Amanda Davidson. I studied with her teacher who prepared her for Juliard. She was handling a large bore instrument at that age better than some of the college students at the time. It can be done and it can be done well.

[ttf_quiethorn]

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Oct 02, 2017, 01:31AMMy two cents on this : pinched sound and difficulty playing in the high range are not the result of the equipment she uses (plenty of people don't sound pinched and have a food high range on a 354...), but of how she's playing. She probably hasn't figured out the airflow yet. That's what you should get her to work on before thinking of horns. Nothing wrong with getting larger horn per se, but by making her sound better, it just compensates and hides issues in her playing that she'll still have, ultimately making both her learning and your teaching harder.

This and what pizzaman said is kind of what I was afraid of... like, yeah, she sounds better initially on a larger horn, but is that really solving the underlying issue?

Thanks for all the insights, everyone.

[ttf_RMTrombone]

My guess is that, at least in part, it's the 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. The larger throat forces her to use more air. I don't know anything about the Yamaha 48 mouthpiece.

The middle school band director I work with has all his trombone players on the 6 1/2 AL, with great results.

IMHO, if she gets good tone on the Getzen 3047AF,  it's time to move her up.

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

Quote from: quiethorn on Oct 02, 2017, 08:14AMThis and what pizzaman said is kind of what I was afraid of... like, yeah, she sounds better initially on a larger horn, but is that really solving the underlying issue?

Thanks for all the insights, everyone.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying she shouldn't move up - I don't believe that prejudice that you need big lung capacity to handle a large bore (or play trombone well at all). Some of the best trombone players I have met or worked with are tiny women that have 30 to 50% less lung capacity than some of my male colleagues - I don't see any correlation in how they play. Maybe they need to breathe more often but that doesn't really make a difference in terms of having a beautiful tone, good phrasing, strong technique and great musicality, does it? And as it's been pointed out, if small kids can play tuba or flute, there's no reason they can't handle the difference between a small and large-bore trombone.

Solving issues in her playing however isn't the right reason to move up to a larger instrument. Gear changes can hide issues instead of actually solving them - it's worth always keeping in mind. She sounds better on the large horn and wants one? Good, she should get one. But the issue is not caused by gear and still needs to be solved nonetheless.

[ttf_DaveBb]

Quote from: quiethorn on Oct 01, 2017, 09:04PMI have her using the Yamaha 48 mouthpiece that came with her horn; roughly the equivalent of a 6.5AL, I think?

Quote from: RMTrombone on Oct 02, 2017, 01:06PMMy guess is that, at least in part, it's the 6 1/2 AL mouthpiece. The larger throat forces her to use more air. I don't know anything about the Yamaha 48 mouthpiece.

On paper the Yamaha 48 and 6-1/2AL look similar (cup diameter, throat size etc.), however the Yamaha feels like it has a much smaller cup diameter, and I feels almost unplayable to me, whereas a 6-1/2AL is fine.

Before deciding to go large bore, it would be worthwhile trying a small shank 6-1/2AL in the 200AD.

[ttf_quiethorn]

I think I'll lend her a small shank 6.5AL I have, focus on long tones for a few months, and see how far that gets her. I realized she's gonna be in marching band next year too, so she needs to learn how to blow on the smaller horn anyway.

[ttf_davdud101]

Quote from: quiethorn on Oct 02, 2017, 04:56PMI think I'll lend her a small shank 6.5AL I have, focus on long tones for a few months, and see how far that gets her. I realized she's gonna be in marching band next year too, so she needs to learn how to blow on the smaller horn anyway.

I'm no pedagog by any means, but I get the impression that - from my own studies as well as working with students - an issue like that would just transfer between horns. Most players I've come across who sound small/pinched on small bores sound EVEN smaller on larger bores struggling against the bore of the instrument and wider mpc rim.
Seems like improving her tone with long tones and working on airflow would do more good for her overall playing.


Again - not a pedagog! Just basing this off of my own experiences.

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Kids should have an F attachment or one of those C/Bb trombones.

[ttf_LowrBrass]

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Oct 02, 2017, 02:43PM...tiny women that have 30 to 50% less lung capacity than some of my male colleagues... *

* citation needed

[ttf_BillO]

He is talking about specific people, so a citation would not be available, unless he knows someone that did some research on his friends.
However I found this for you with a quick google...


https://missyerickson.wordpress.com/2010/11/16/man-vs-woman/


See the section on lungs...

There is this too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes#Values

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

Quote from: LowrBrass on Oct 24, 2017, 05:25AM* citation needed

Well, I think it's fairly well established that taller people tend to have larger lungs (although apparently the corellation is not super strong and there would be a stronger link with length of lower limbs).

It's been a while since I read those for a college musician's health course so I don't remember the author names or exact publication, but there were a few studies made at the Montreal University Health Center that found that female typically have 10 to 12% smaller lung volume. I believe they were realized at the Hôtel-Dieu, if my memory is correct.

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

But yeah, I think it's fair to assume that my 5'1" friend has much smaller lungs (30 to 50% may have been an exaggeration...)  than my 6'5" colleague in the most extreme example I can think of, for instance. Their difference in lung capacity doesn't seem to be relevant at all when they play.

[ttf_anonymous]

I teach my 13 year old son. As soon as he showed he was going to practice (6th grade) I moved him to a .547 horn with the F. My son is almost always the smallest in his class.  I made no mention of it being "big", just demanded that he play with proper air and support. I personally believe the "intermediate horns" to be unnecessary. I just purchased an older pro horn that wasn't pretty but was able to produce a good sound. He's doing rather well with it. If you give her the horn and have her play with it, and focus on air and support, she'll be just fine.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: Disco on Oct 24, 2017, 11:57AMI personally believe the "intermediate horns" to be unnecessary.
The smaller horns benefits aren't ONLY related to them being somewhat smaller, unless you believe the larger horns are ONLY due to them being larger.

Sound
Weight
Flexibility

These are all reasons for anybody to use a middle-size rather than a largest size tenor. Why push students into something on the far end of the spectrum? It makes no sense. Pros and amateurs alike use sizes other than 547. It makes no sense to push students into the far corner where chances of success are even a little bit smaller. It's an obsession that starts somewhere other than the kids. This argument drives me nuts, and I still don't see an advantage to pushing kids to the extreme. Is this really Emory Remington's vision, or has the instrument industry warped his idea to sell more horns?

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Quote from: BillO on Oct 24, 2017, 11:31AM
There is this too...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lung_volumes#Values

That just shows that men are about 30% better than women in general. I don't see how it applies here.

[ttf_BillO]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 24, 2017, 12:19PMThat just shows that men are better than women in general. I don't see how it applies here.
Now, now!

[ttf_harrison.t.reed]

Wait. No. What had happened was. What I mean is that it takes a 30% better trombone for women to be equal in terms of total lung output.

This has nothing to do with musical expression or tone. Just the raw numbers.

either the trombone should just cost 30% more for women, or the leadpipe should have a 30% smaller chokepoint.

my math might be wrong. ...

[ttf_bubbachet]

Quote from: harrison.t.reed on Oct 24, 2017, 12:19PMThat just shows that men are about 30% better than women in general. I don't see how it applies here.

 

[ttf_Disco]

Quote from: hyperbolica on Oct 24, 2017, 12:12PM

These are all reasons for anybody to use a middle-size rather than a largest size tenor. Why push students into something on the far end of the spectrum?

Sir,
I did say it was my personal opinion. I think the whole idea is to project the sound the guy waving the stick is looking for. I know the big colleges out here are specific to the brand and model you play because they are looking for a specific sound. I played a .547 for years, and I've never heard of it referred to as the far end of the spectrum. It was kind of the standard for Symphony and Wind Ensemble playing. I agree it might not be optimal for lead in a jazz band, but that's why God invented the King 2B+. My son's sound greatly improved with the switch to a .547. Several of the kids at his school followed him to a big horn. Their sound improved as well. I don't think that makes me a madman. And I certainly don't think it means I'm unzipping to pee on Remington's grave. 

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Yeah, its a peer pressure thing that band directors perpetuate. There is nothing wrong with 485, 491, 500, 508, 515, 525. Pros find each of those sizes have the right sound in certain situations. It's really odd that students of all people are the ones who feel most driven to 547. How many students will realistically wind up with a symphony job? Even in a pro symphony, the first part is not always played on the 547. I'm just saying there's something driving this other than sound. You might be confusing "intermediate" size with intermediate skill, or some other property.

[ttf_Matt K]

Using smaller horns is just as fine as using bigger horns so long as the context is appropriate. I do tend to shy away from making recommendations based on 'ease' of playing; every time I've helped someone find a horn I don't tell them what size it is.  For public school aged students doing classical & wind styles... that's typically meant 525 or 547.  None of them have ever mentioned that the bigger horn was more difficult or harder to fill. Or even knew that there was a size difference among trombones in general prior to me telling them.

On the contrary, I've also helped find horns for a number of players, mostly college aged, who are classical oriented and wanted to dabble more in commercial settings and find smaller horns to be very unwieldy or difficult to control.

The people in the former group typically have much less experience than the ones in the latter group have more experience.  Clearly they are on different levels, but there is nothing inherently easy or hard about one bore size over another.

[ttf_Disco]

I believe Intermediate Horns are often referred to as "step up" horns?

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: Disco on Oct 24, 2017, 03:07PMI believe Intermediate Horns are often referred to as "step up" horns?
Yes, there is that classification, but there are pro-level 525, 508, 510, etc. I think people confuse this step up idea with medium bore, like 36b. Great horn. My teacher played one in the NY ballet, the NY Brass Quintet, I'm sure many other places. Rath makes a 510 bore. The Michael Davis plus is a 508 bore Shires. Jiggs Whigham's name is on some 2bs I think. JJ Johnson played 3b. Slide Hampton played a big bore horn. The list is huge of artists that use something other than 547. When symphonic players play alto, there are very few 547 bore alto trombones even made. The prejudice for 547, even in the classical world is not warranted. In my quartet, I play every thing from 491 to 562. In quintet I stick mainly to 491 and 525. In orchestra on lead I play 525, second I play 547 and when on bass I play 562.

By the way, bass players also have this hang up with size, but that's a different thread.

[ttf_William Lang]

move her to a .547 tenor - it's the industry standard and the more time to get used to it the better. that's my advice for all young students - get there as soon as is comfortable if you're studying in the romantic classical orchestral tradition.

[ttf_hyperbolica]

Quote from: William Lang on Oct 24, 2017, 04:55PMmove her to a .547 tenor - it's the industry standard and the more time to get used to it the better. that's my advice for all young students - get there as soon as is comfortable if you're studying in the romantic classical orchestral tradition.
Whether it works or not, because, you know, everybody plays in a big pro orchestra these days. The industry knows best.

[ttf_LowrBrass]

(We've moved on, but as a parenthetical aside:

Quote from: Le.Tromboniste on Oct 24, 2017, 11:52AMBut yeah, I think it's fair to assume that my 5'1" friend has much smaller lungs (30 to 50% may have been an exaggeration...)  than my 6'5" colleague in the most extreme example I can think of, for instance. Their difference in lung capacity doesn't seem to be relevant at all when they play.

Wasn't questioning the main point... just wondering where you got such specific statistics about your colleagues' lung capacities.
(I know, whatever, but this is how rumors and falsehoods and alternative facts start)

Here's something about females having 10-12% smaller lung volumes (http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200208-876OC). I'd normally cross-reference a few other sources, because one paper's findings do not make a fact, but it's late and I've got better things to do.

Thanks, BillO, for digging up a couple citations. 

)

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

Quote from: LowrBrass on Oct 24, 2017, 08:12PM
Here's something about females having 10-12% smaller lung volumes (http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200208-876OC). I'd normally cross-reference a few other sources, because one paper's findings do not make a fact, but it's late and I've got better things to do.


Ha, yes that was precisely one of the studies I was referring to

[ttf_Le.Tromboniste]

Quote from: LowrBrass on Oct 24, 2017, 08:12PM
Here's something about females having 10-12% smaller lung volumes (http://www.atsjournals.org/doi/full/10.1164/rccm.200208-876OC). I'd normally cross-reference a few other sources, because one paper's findings do not make a fact, but it's late and I've got better things to do.


Ha, yes that was precisely one of the studies I was referring to