In another thread I said:
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Oct 30, 2017, 07:42PMI think tone is overrated. If you go and really think about the important, emotive elements of music, tone doesn't rank that high. Just look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note. If this information were important, it would be super easy to identify.
and Matt K replied:
Quote from: Matt K on Oct 31, 2017, 06:02AMI think I understand where you're coming from but also bear in mind that when we say 'tone', especially when we're very conscious of what we sound like because we're on a double (a somewhat unfamiliar instrument) that the articulations and their quality are kind of rolled into that. I know when I play a 12C, my tone suffers although not to the degree that you might notice if you weren't familiar with my playing. But what really suffers are quality of articulations and flexibility (and endurance, though that won't come into play immediately). If you are chipping notes or have imprecise articulations, I'd normally consider that a function of the tone quality even if it isn't the most accurate use of the term.
So I think I agree but I just wanted to put that out there because obviously I think it would be possible to misconstrue what you are saying.
And a few others were more disparaging.
My thought is: do we generally agree on what constitutes tone? Is it the entire duration of a note, or the middle? What is the difference between tone and sound? After agreeing on what tone is, then how important is it?
What is tone?
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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ttf_robcat2075
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What is tone?
Maybe we can't define it but all know bad tone when we hear it.
This isn't exactly what you are asking but...
I think in the orchestral trombone section universe there is a pretty close agreement on what "good tone" is, so there must be some mental definition of "tone" at work, probably taking into account the entire ADSR of the note and also how lines are handled form note to note.
I sense there is somewhat less agreement on "good tone" for classical solo trombone sound.
In jazz it seems like any tone is acceptable if the other musical aspects are done well.
QuoteJust look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note.
This is really a listener test of "timbre" which I think we could say is a subset of "tone"
This isn't exactly what you are asking but...
I think in the orchestral trombone section universe there is a pretty close agreement on what "good tone" is, so there must be some mental definition of "tone" at work, probably taking into account the entire ADSR of the note and also how lines are handled form note to note.
I sense there is somewhat less agreement on "good tone" for classical solo trombone sound.
In jazz it seems like any tone is acceptable if the other musical aspects are done well.
QuoteJust look at the studies showing how difficult it is for people to identify instruments listening to sound samples which eliminate the start and end of a note, reducing the sound down to the tone of the middle of a note.
This is really a listener test of "timbre" which I think we could say is a subset of "tone"
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ttf_Matt K
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What is tone?
From a practical standpoint, I usually use it to mean the quality of sound from the attack through the release and everything in between since any comparison in the real world would necessarily include those as parts of tone. This is obviously different from what yours (and probably the 'correct' definition is!) But as far as what constitutes good; I don't know hwo to put it in words. Honestly. But its something that I know it when I hear it 
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Well, maybe let's first look at how people describe tones. Tones are commonly "bright" or "dark" or "dull" but rarely "biting" or "mushy". In that context, it seems that people are generally more concerned with the non-articulation elements of sound when talking about tone.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
It depends upon the musical context. If I play my King 2B with a Bach 12 mpc in a symphonic setting on 2nd or 3rd part (even on the 1st part), everyone would say I had a bad tone. Truth is, though I don't. I have a good King 2B with a Bach 12 mpc tone.
People often fail to perceive a good tone when it is out of context with their expectations. But if you listen, really listen - you might hear an open, ringing and mellow tone on a performer who is playing the "wrong" set-up. It just is not the kind of open, ringing and mellow tone you might want at the time. Imagine Jack Teagarden - whom we all know had a great tone - playing the 3rd part in a symphonic setting. Same great tone, but bad for the purpose at hand.
I recently lent an LP of a wonderful jazz trombone player to a band-mate for listen. He told me he wasn't fond of the player's tone on the jazz LP. Why? Because it didn't sound like Joe Alessi. THAT was what he wanted to hear and anything else was unacceptable. I don't fault him. Pointless to argue style and taste. He likes what he likes. We all do. Better as a performer to give the kind of style, taste and tone an audience is expecting - unless the player is THAT good and he SETS the style, taste and tone for others to follow.
...Geezer
People often fail to perceive a good tone when it is out of context with their expectations. But if you listen, really listen - you might hear an open, ringing and mellow tone on a performer who is playing the "wrong" set-up. It just is not the kind of open, ringing and mellow tone you might want at the time. Imagine Jack Teagarden - whom we all know had a great tone - playing the 3rd part in a symphonic setting. Same great tone, but bad for the purpose at hand.
I recently lent an LP of a wonderful jazz trombone player to a band-mate for listen. He told me he wasn't fond of the player's tone on the jazz LP. Why? Because it didn't sound like Joe Alessi. THAT was what he wanted to hear and anything else was unacceptable. I don't fault him. Pointless to argue style and taste. He likes what he likes. We all do. Better as a performer to give the kind of style, taste and tone an audience is expecting - unless the player is THAT good and he SETS the style, taste and tone for others to follow.
...Geezer
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 04, 2017, 07:51AMIt depends upon the musical context. If I play my King 2B with a Bach 12 mpc in a symphonic setting on 2nd or 3rd part (even on the 1st part), everyone would say I had a bad tone. Truth is, though I don't. I have a good King 2B with a Bach 12 mpc tone.
People often fail to perceive a good tone when it is out of context with their expectations. But if you listen, really listen - you might hear an open, ringing and mellow tone on a performer who is playing the "wrong" set-up. It just is not the kind of open, ringing and mellow tone you might want at the time. Imagine Jack Teagarden - who we all know had a great tone - playing the 3rd part in a symphonic setting. Same great tone, but bad for the purpose at hand.
I recently lent an LP of a wonderful jazz trombone player to a band-mate for listen. He told me he wasn't fond of the player's tone on the jazz LP. Why? Because it didn't sound like Joe Alessi. THAT was what he wanted to hear and anything else was unacceptable. I don't fault him. Pointless to argue style and taste. He likes what he likes. We all do. Better as a performer to give the kind of style, taste and tone an audience is expecting - unless the player is THAT good and he SETS the style, taste and tone for others to follow.
...Geezer
You know, this makes a lot of sense, that a tone concept is very style-oriented instead of a "fundamental" property. It certainly seems to mesh with how people use the term.
People often fail to perceive a good tone when it is out of context with their expectations. But if you listen, really listen - you might hear an open, ringing and mellow tone on a performer who is playing the "wrong" set-up. It just is not the kind of open, ringing and mellow tone you might want at the time. Imagine Jack Teagarden - who we all know had a great tone - playing the 3rd part in a symphonic setting. Same great tone, but bad for the purpose at hand.
I recently lent an LP of a wonderful jazz trombone player to a band-mate for listen. He told me he wasn't fond of the player's tone on the jazz LP. Why? Because it didn't sound like Joe Alessi. THAT was what he wanted to hear and anything else was unacceptable. I don't fault him. Pointless to argue style and taste. He likes what he likes. We all do. Better as a performer to give the kind of style, taste and tone an audience is expecting - unless the player is THAT good and he SETS the style, taste and tone for others to follow.
...Geezer
You know, this makes a lot of sense, that a tone concept is very style-oriented instead of a "fundamental" property. It certainly seems to mesh with how people use the term.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 08:03AMYou know, this makes a lot of sense, that a tone concept is very style-oriented instead of a "fundamental" property. It certainly seems to mesh with how people use the term.
Thank you. I think it is an underappreciated or even an unknown concept. Perhaps not now.
Everyone was typing at the speed of light when I made that post and a couple posts got in ahead of it. But to your concept of a "fundamental" property of tone:
I believe there are underlying fundamentals of tone.
1) Openness. That is for me - far and away - THE first fundamental of a good tone. If someone's tone sounds constricted, congested, nasal or unintentionally buzzy (there are times in jazz when it is appropriate) - it signals to me a bad tone. The tone MUST be open and unimpeded through the horn.
2) Ringing. We play a musical instrument with a "bell". It is called a bell b/c it looks like a bell. And like a bell, a trombone should have a certain ring to it. Call that brightness if you want. But it should not be dull and lifeless.
3) Mellow. There can be mellowness in even the highest and brightest of sounds - even the highest of notes. High notes that have that quality, sound - to my ear - deceptively lower in pitch than they actually are. People sometimes confuse trombone mellowness with a euphonium sound. Bad idea. A euphonium should sound like a euphonium and a trombone should sound like a trombone. There is a different kind of mellowness in each.
OBTW, for the purpose of our discussion, I believe we ought not to include those kinds of sounds generated for special effect or mood enhancement. If you don't particularly like a pixie mute/rubber-plunger sound, then you might think that Tyree Glenn had a not-good sound. Oh, but he had a marvelous sound. So terrific in fact, that his tone could carry a pixie mute/rubber-plunger and sound DARN good doing it. But perhaps we should stick to straight-on every-day tone in our discussion and let the special effects stuff for another time.
...Geezer
Thank you. I think it is an underappreciated or even an unknown concept. Perhaps not now.
Everyone was typing at the speed of light when I made that post and a couple posts got in ahead of it. But to your concept of a "fundamental" property of tone:
I believe there are underlying fundamentals of tone.
1) Openness. That is for me - far and away - THE first fundamental of a good tone. If someone's tone sounds constricted, congested, nasal or unintentionally buzzy (there are times in jazz when it is appropriate) - it signals to me a bad tone. The tone MUST be open and unimpeded through the horn.
2) Ringing. We play a musical instrument with a "bell". It is called a bell b/c it looks like a bell. And like a bell, a trombone should have a certain ring to it. Call that brightness if you want. But it should not be dull and lifeless.
3) Mellow. There can be mellowness in even the highest and brightest of sounds - even the highest of notes. High notes that have that quality, sound - to my ear - deceptively lower in pitch than they actually are. People sometimes confuse trombone mellowness with a euphonium sound. Bad idea. A euphonium should sound like a euphonium and a trombone should sound like a trombone. There is a different kind of mellowness in each.
OBTW, for the purpose of our discussion, I believe we ought not to include those kinds of sounds generated for special effect or mood enhancement. If you don't particularly like a pixie mute/rubber-plunger sound, then you might think that Tyree Glenn had a not-good sound. Oh, but he had a marvelous sound. So terrific in fact, that his tone could carry a pixie mute/rubber-plunger and sound DARN good doing it. But perhaps we should stick to straight-on every-day tone in our discussion and let the special effects stuff for another time.
...Geezer
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ttf_Pre59
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What is tone?
There was a thread going a while back about playing on the "high side" of the note, not sharp but bright. I never could see the sense in that, I try to play right through the middle of the note, no matter what, but then I am playing a small bore horn.
Or have I got this concept complete wrong?..
Or have I got this concept complete wrong?..
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ttf_JP
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What is tone?
When I think of using the word tone I think using the qualifiers (adjectives, adverbs) are more important then the word (noun).
For example: really good tone, really bad tone, wonderful tone quality, out of tune tone, etc.
In other words, everything has a tone, everyone produces tones, its what you do with them that matters.
When I was living in Los Angeles and a very good friend of a famous studio player, who I will not name because he has not given me that permission. He told me that he figured out why George Roberts was so sought after, because of his beautiful sound whenever he played. So that same player made it his goal to have one of the beautiful tone quality of all trombone players that he was associated with. And he created exercises that helped to do that, Long Tones, man, long tones Definitely has worked for him he is on hundreds if not thousands of soundtracks.
Whenever I think of good tone quality, equate it to singers. Which most of my teachers and people like George Roberts imparted to me that was important. Good intonation, clear articulation (or in the case of singers pronunciation), excellent rhythm (how do you start and end that tone?) and a personal approach to every pitch that you produce.
Tone is not the goal, It is the result of your musicality.
For example: really good tone, really bad tone, wonderful tone quality, out of tune tone, etc.
In other words, everything has a tone, everyone produces tones, its what you do with them that matters.
When I was living in Los Angeles and a very good friend of a famous studio player, who I will not name because he has not given me that permission. He told me that he figured out why George Roberts was so sought after, because of his beautiful sound whenever he played. So that same player made it his goal to have one of the beautiful tone quality of all trombone players that he was associated with. And he created exercises that helped to do that, Long Tones, man, long tones Definitely has worked for him he is on hundreds if not thousands of soundtracks.
Whenever I think of good tone quality, equate it to singers. Which most of my teachers and people like George Roberts imparted to me that was important. Good intonation, clear articulation (or in the case of singers pronunciation), excellent rhythm (how do you start and end that tone?) and a personal approach to every pitch that you produce.
Tone is not the goal, It is the result of your musicality.
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ttf_Burgerbob
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What is tone?
Why does it have to be so didactic?
Good sound is good sound... But good sound can mean different things in many different situations.
Saying "tone doesn't matter" is a frankly silly way to say that the big band section style and sound are different than say the orchestral ideal. You still have to sound good in that setting. An orchestral sound would actually not sound good there.
Good sound is good sound... But good sound can mean different things in many different situations.
Saying "tone doesn't matter" is a frankly silly way to say that the big band section style and sound are different than say the orchestral ideal. You still have to sound good in that setting. An orchestral sound would actually not sound good there.
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ttf_LowrBrass
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What is tone?
Buddy of mine almost exclusively plays big trombones (bass + large bore). He brings his old student small bore to community pits when he needs to play something high and jazzy.
"I hate the tone on it, though," he said to me today. He played a couple notes to demonstrate how terrible it was.
"It doesn't sound that bad," I said. "It just sounds like you're playing a small bore."
"I hate that," he said.
It's all a matter of taste, innit?
"I hate the tone on it, though," he said to me today. He played a couple notes to demonstrate how terrible it was.
"It doesn't sound that bad," I said. "It just sounds like you're playing a small bore."
"I hate that," he said.
It's all a matter of taste, innit?
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 07:34PMI never said that.
I think you said tone was overrated. it's just that it's not a common thing to say which has caused a few raised eyebrows
Whilst I acknowledge that there are a huge number of variables that constitute a "good tone", saying that it is overrated just sounds a bit dismissive, given how so many accomplished players put such importance on it.
You use the example in your earlier quote, mentioning that people have difficulty distinguishing what particular instrument has produced the sound when you take away the end and particularly the beginning of a note. Whilst I agree that is true (I remember the first time I tried this I was amazed at how much difficulty I had!), I would argue that those elements you are talking about removing, are key factors in producing and identifying a good tone.
As this thread is proving, tone, much like almost anything music related is extremely difficult to define, even more so through text over the internet. However, whilst it's difficult to explain, as others have mentioned, it is easy to identify when a tone is bad. I believe that to be the case anyway.
I strongly disagree with you that tone is overrated, and even with it being a difficult thing to explain I can't imagine there being any benefit to the student or professional to take on the attitude that it isn't important. To be successful, I think that you have to aim for producing the highest quality performance you are capable of. If we define tone as the "quality of sound produced" then you really can't afford to compromise it in any way shape or form.
Fortunately there is no particular sound that is the one and only way of making a quality tone, in any style of playing on any kind of trombone the tone will and should differ, but what shouldn't differ is the performers commitment to excellence in how they approach the tone they are aiming to achieve.
Perhaps you have a different definition of tone? I think it would be helpful to hear what other qualities of trombone playing you think deserve more attention than the tone.
I think you said tone was overrated. it's just that it's not a common thing to say which has caused a few raised eyebrows
Whilst I acknowledge that there are a huge number of variables that constitute a "good tone", saying that it is overrated just sounds a bit dismissive, given how so many accomplished players put such importance on it.
You use the example in your earlier quote, mentioning that people have difficulty distinguishing what particular instrument has produced the sound when you take away the end and particularly the beginning of a note. Whilst I agree that is true (I remember the first time I tried this I was amazed at how much difficulty I had!), I would argue that those elements you are talking about removing, are key factors in producing and identifying a good tone.
As this thread is proving, tone, much like almost anything music related is extremely difficult to define, even more so through text over the internet. However, whilst it's difficult to explain, as others have mentioned, it is easy to identify when a tone is bad. I believe that to be the case anyway.
I strongly disagree with you that tone is overrated, and even with it being a difficult thing to explain I can't imagine there being any benefit to the student or professional to take on the attitude that it isn't important. To be successful, I think that you have to aim for producing the highest quality performance you are capable of. If we define tone as the "quality of sound produced" then you really can't afford to compromise it in any way shape or form.
Fortunately there is no particular sound that is the one and only way of making a quality tone, in any style of playing on any kind of trombone the tone will and should differ, but what shouldn't differ is the performers commitment to excellence in how they approach the tone they are aiming to achieve.
Perhaps you have a different definition of tone? I think it would be helpful to hear what other qualities of trombone playing you think deserve more attention than the tone.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Quote from: bigbassbone1 on Nov 04, 2017, 08:08PMI can't imagine there being any benefit to the student or professional to take on the attitude that it isn't important.
I didn't say that either.
Does "overrated" mean any of these things? I think tone is still valuable, just not thought about in the right way. Tone results when an embouchure is mechanically stable, style is mastered, and things generally are working correctly. After that, different people and different physical setups (mouthpieces, bells, etc.) still have different tones and that should be OK. Tone is the effect of things working, not the cause - that's the sense in which I think it's overrated.
I didn't say that either.
Does "overrated" mean any of these things? I think tone is still valuable, just not thought about in the right way. Tone results when an embouchure is mechanically stable, style is mastered, and things generally are working correctly. After that, different people and different physical setups (mouthpieces, bells, etc.) still have different tones and that should be OK. Tone is the effect of things working, not the cause - that's the sense in which I think it's overrated.
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 08:36PMI didn't say that either.
Does "overrated" mean any of these things? I think tone is still valuable, just not thought about in the right way. Tone results when an embouchure is mechanically stable, style is mastered, and things generally are working correctly. After that, different people and different physical setups (mouthpieces, bells, etc.) still have different tones and that should be OK. Tone is the effect of things working, not the cause - that's the sense in which I think it's overrated.
I think it probably does mean that. If something is "overrated" then you are going to think that it's not really that good or not important. If I described to a student that long tones were overrated then the student would probably think that they were not an important part of practice. If someone tells me an ensemble is "overrated" or even if a restaurant is "overrated" I am going to think they are saying it's not good. Whatever though, that's neither here nor there.
I think if you had given that description here initially rather than calling tone overrated then people would probably not have responded in the way they did. That description makes more sense. At least to me the joys of the internet!
Does "overrated" mean any of these things? I think tone is still valuable, just not thought about in the right way. Tone results when an embouchure is mechanically stable, style is mastered, and things generally are working correctly. After that, different people and different physical setups (mouthpieces, bells, etc.) still have different tones and that should be OK. Tone is the effect of things working, not the cause - that's the sense in which I think it's overrated.
I think it probably does mean that. If something is "overrated" then you are going to think that it's not really that good or not important. If I described to a student that long tones were overrated then the student would probably think that they were not an important part of practice. If someone tells me an ensemble is "overrated" or even if a restaurant is "overrated" I am going to think they are saying it's not good. Whatever though, that's neither here nor there.
I think if you had given that description here initially rather than calling tone overrated then people would probably not have responded in the way they did. That description makes more sense. At least to me
the joys of the internet!-
ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Really? If I say the Yankees are overrated, it doesn't mean they suck. They didn't. At least, not this year. They just weren't the best team, despite Joe Buck's fondest wishes.
I think maybe I don't understand English. Or, language or thinking.
I think maybe I don't understand English. Or, language or thinking.
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ttf_SMunger
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 07:11AMMy thought is: do we generally agree on what constitutes tone? Is it the entire duration of a note, or the middle? What is the difference between tone and sound? After agreeing on what tone is, then how important is it?
I think "tone" IS the middle of the note, minus the artifacts that have to do with attack and release. "Sound" might be considered the bigger picture that includes those elements.
Just because people have difficulty identifying an instrument when you take those elements away that does not mean people aren't affected by it. Tone is exceedingly important and is a very important part of what determine how we perceive, appreciate and respond to music.
And that doesn't mean "good" tone, it means tone that conveys what the artist wants to express. Whether that is achieved with the beautiful, round violin tone of a Heifetz, or the breathiness of a Chet Baker or the sandpaper grating of a Billie Holiday, tone is crucial to musical expression.
I think "tone" IS the middle of the note, minus the artifacts that have to do with attack and release. "Sound" might be considered the bigger picture that includes those elements.
Just because people have difficulty identifying an instrument when you take those elements away that does not mean people aren't affected by it. Tone is exceedingly important and is a very important part of what determine how we perceive, appreciate and respond to music.
And that doesn't mean "good" tone, it means tone that conveys what the artist wants to express. Whether that is achieved with the beautiful, round violin tone of a Heifetz, or the breathiness of a Chet Baker or the sandpaper grating of a Billie Holiday, tone is crucial to musical expression.
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ttf_MrPillow
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What is tone?
If you grant that what we call "tone" is synonymous with what acousticians, audiologists, and the other plethora of musical scientists call "quality," (loosely interchangeable with timbre in some fields) you will find that there has been an enormous body of research on what constitutes and qualifies "tone," none of which has come to anything close to resembling a useful conclusion. There are stock definitions floating around, but the old adage still stands; that tone is essentially a black hole category that sucks up every attribute that falls under the third of the three basic characteristics of musical sound: pitch, loudness, and quality.
Sadly I don't think you'll ever find an answer, other than you'll know tone when you hear it, because you can't hear something without tone
Sadly I don't think you'll ever find an answer, other than you'll know tone when you hear it, because you can't hear something without tone
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ttf_jalapeno
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What is tone?
I think Steve norell said in some masterclass instant presence
He may have been talking about something else but thats something else to think about
He referenced a clarinet player that had that quality
He gave an analogy of turning on a water faucet and boom instant water flow. Instant tone
Something to strive for !
He may have been talking about something else but thats something else to think about
He referenced a clarinet player that had that quality
He gave an analogy of turning on a water faucet and boom instant water flow. Instant tone
Something to strive for !
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ttf_Burgerbob
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 07:34PMI never said that.
True. My bad for mis-remembering.
The rest of my comment still stands, though.
True. My bad for mis-remembering.
The rest of my comment still stands, though.
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ttf_watermailonman
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What is tone?
Sound has a lot to do with articulation and use of vibrato. It could also include choice of phrases in improvisation. Sound is a wide concept that describes both good taste and musicality. A tone must blend in a section chord and is one part of a sound.
Sound need to fit its musical overall context as well as tone needs to fit the specific context of a chord.
I know trombone players with a compressed tone, a tone I would NOT describe as open and complex, NOT full of a balanced mix of overtones.
Give them a microphone and they will produce a good sound with the help of the mic.
Trombone players with a compressed tone can sound and produce articulations and dynamics and fit a context of other compressed tones especially thru mic, and then the result can be good dispite their natural sound is built on a compressed tone-concept. In the right context their tones will be described as a part of their sound, if all articulation and musicality is there especially when improvising solos in jazz.
What differs a compressed tone from an open tone? What happens when a compressed tone gets louder is the high overtones makes it nasty or prominent because the balance is changed, but the lower fundamental will not be much louder. When such a compressed tone gets softer it looses its overtones and sound muddy. An open tone is not the same. An open tone is more even from soft to when it expands. A complex spectra of balance in all nuances. It brings light and is full of space when played both soft and loud. A classical context needs such an egal tone-concept. We like open tones there because of the possibility to make big egal dynamic differences.
In other contexts where there are lots of electrified instruments the dynamics of a tone is not at all as important. It can be done by microphones instead. It is more important to be heard in the first place.
Like it or not but this is the path jazz and pop music has taken. Most bass players are now heard electrified and piano as well and saxes have mics and most solos have mics. All may have mics.
If we have a mic tone is less important because the mic takes care of it for us, but we must have a good sound. Learn how to use the mic, articulate, use vibrato and play musically and play good phrases when improvising.
Control of tone is more important in aucustic playing. You know when players have good tone and blend well because their tones fit well together in all dynamics. Tones from different tone-concepts does not blend the same.
I do think dynamics and balance in the tone must be part of a tone-concept if a tone-concept has a meaning at all.
It is true that the attack under certain circumstances reveals a lot what instrument it is, and if the attack is removed you could not as easely hear that. I have also done that experiment, but in the test it is a RECORDED tone we can not separate under those circumstances.
The definitions may be a barrier of language too when translating "sound" and "tone". In swedish "fin ton" or "vacker ton" is actually a description of the quality of tone as beautiful. We also use the English word "sound" and then it is the wider concept. We don't only refer to tone when we talk about high and low frequences. We can also describe a bad improvised solo as "en massa meningslösa toner" translated to "a bunch of pointless notes". We may use the word different because it exists in differently languages and may have evolved differently.
/Tom
Sound need to fit its musical overall context as well as tone needs to fit the specific context of a chord.
I know trombone players with a compressed tone, a tone I would NOT describe as open and complex, NOT full of a balanced mix of overtones.
Give them a microphone and they will produce a good sound with the help of the mic.
Trombone players with a compressed tone can sound and produce articulations and dynamics and fit a context of other compressed tones especially thru mic, and then the result can be good dispite their natural sound is built on a compressed tone-concept. In the right context their tones will be described as a part of their sound, if all articulation and musicality is there especially when improvising solos in jazz.
What differs a compressed tone from an open tone? What happens when a compressed tone gets louder is the high overtones makes it nasty or prominent because the balance is changed, but the lower fundamental will not be much louder. When such a compressed tone gets softer it looses its overtones and sound muddy. An open tone is not the same. An open tone is more even from soft to when it expands. A complex spectra of balance in all nuances. It brings light and is full of space when played both soft and loud. A classical context needs such an egal tone-concept. We like open tones there because of the possibility to make big egal dynamic differences.
In other contexts where there are lots of electrified instruments the dynamics of a tone is not at all as important. It can be done by microphones instead. It is more important to be heard in the first place.
Like it or not but this is the path jazz and pop music has taken. Most bass players are now heard electrified and piano as well and saxes have mics and most solos have mics. All may have mics.
If we have a mic tone is less important because the mic takes care of it for us, but we must have a good sound. Learn how to use the mic, articulate, use vibrato and play musically and play good phrases when improvising.
Control of tone is more important in aucustic playing. You know when players have good tone and blend well because their tones fit well together in all dynamics. Tones from different tone-concepts does not blend the same.
I do think dynamics and balance in the tone must be part of a tone-concept if a tone-concept has a meaning at all.
It is true that the attack under certain circumstances reveals a lot what instrument it is, and if the attack is removed you could not as easely hear that. I have also done that experiment, but in the test it is a RECORDED tone we can not separate under those circumstances.
The definitions may be a barrier of language too when translating "sound" and "tone". In swedish "fin ton" or "vacker ton" is actually a description of the quality of tone as beautiful. We also use the English word "sound" and then it is the wider concept. We don't only refer to tone when we talk about high and low frequences. We can also describe a bad improvised solo as "en massa meningslösa toner" translated to "a bunch of pointless notes". We may use the word different because it exists in differently languages and may have evolved differently.
/Tom
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ttf_Pre59
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What is tone?
Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 04, 2017, 06:54PMBuddy of mine almost exclusively plays big trombones (bass + large bore). He brings his old student small bore to community pits when he needs to play something high and jazzy.
"I hate the tone on it, though," he said to me today. He played a couple notes to demonstrate how terrible it was.
"It doesn't sound that bad," I said. "It just sounds like you're playing a small bore."
"I hate that," he said.
It's all a matter of taste, innit?
Well no, not at all.
If you turned this post on it's head, and a small bore player turned up with a .547 or a .562 and said " hate these large bore horns", most people would say that this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet. Whether it's the right tool for the music at hand is for another topic.
The kids on YouTube videos swopping instruments to demonstrate the differences between bore sizes don't get it either.
"I hate the tone on it, though," he said to me today. He played a couple notes to demonstrate how terrible it was.
"It doesn't sound that bad," I said. "It just sounds like you're playing a small bore."
"I hate that," he said.
It's all a matter of taste, innit?
Well no, not at all.
If you turned this post on it's head, and a small bore player turned up with a .547 or a .562 and said " hate these large bore horns", most people would say that this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet. Whether it's the right tool for the music at hand is for another topic.
The kids on YouTube videos swopping instruments to demonstrate the differences between bore sizes don't get it either.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
Converse to knowing a bad tone when we hear it is when we are listening to a player and we are fortunate enough to have an "AHA" moment where we realize that THAT is how a trombone SHOULD sound (in a particular context)! THEN we know what a good tone is, even if we can't define it. And even if we can't precisely define it, we can still try to imitate it. And if we try to imitate it, then we can begin to understand the components that make up that special sound, or tone.
And at this point I would like to suggest that tone and sound are two different concepts. While sound may encompass the quality of "openness", "brightness" or "ringing" and "mellowness" or "darkness" and other factors, such as "edge", tone is all of that PLUS style or artistry.
OR as mentioned in a post below, perhaps the words should be swapped.
...Geezer
And at this point I would like to suggest that tone and sound are two different concepts. While sound may encompass the quality of "openness", "brightness" or "ringing" and "mellowness" or "darkness" and other factors, such as "edge", tone is all of that PLUS style or artistry.
OR as mentioned in a post below, perhaps the words should be swapped.
...Geezer
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ttf_LowrBrass
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What is tone?
Quote from: Pre59 on Nov 05, 2017, 01:41AMWell no, not at all.
If you turned this post on it's head, and a small bore player turned up with a .547 or a .562 and said " hate these large bore horns", most people would say that this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet. Whether it's the right tool for the music at hand is for another topic.
The kids on YouTube videos swopping instruments to demonstrate the differences between bore sizes don't get it either.
I dunno.
In your example, people would only say "this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet" if I also mentioned it was a community group.
Maybe I shouldn't mention that.
I've certainly met good players who aren't fans of the sound of large bores-- I just didn't get a quote from them yesterday.
In hindsight, maybe my example is more a matter of "timbre" or "sound" than "tone."
I probably do use the words interchangeably.
In the end, they're just words.
As long as the person you're trying to communicate with understands what you're getting at, I'm not 100% convinced the taxonomy matters.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
(I would also swap Geezer's definitions of "tone" and "sound"-- "sound" seems to me like a broader all-encompassing term-- but like I said, not my debate )
If you turned this post on it's head, and a small bore player turned up with a .547 or a .562 and said " hate these large bore horns", most people would say that this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet. Whether it's the right tool for the music at hand is for another topic.
The kids on YouTube videos swopping instruments to demonstrate the differences between bore sizes don't get it either.
I dunno.
In your example, people would only say "this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet" if I also mentioned it was a community group.
Maybe I shouldn't mention that.
I've certainly met good players who aren't fans of the sound of large bores-- I just didn't get a quote from them yesterday.
In hindsight, maybe my example is more a matter of "timbre" or "sound" than "tone."
I probably do use the words interchangeably.
In the end, they're just words.
As long as the person you're trying to communicate with understands what you're getting at, I'm not 100% convinced the taxonomy matters.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
(I would also swap Geezer's definitions of "tone" and "sound"-- "sound" seems to me like a broader all-encompassing term-- but like I said, not my debate
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 05, 2017, 05:37AMI dunno.
In your example, people would only say "this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet" if I also mentioned it was a community group.
Maybe I shouldn't mention that.
I've certainly met good players who aren't fans of the sound of large bores-- I just didn't get a quote from them yesterday.
In hindsight, maybe my example is more a matter of "timbre" or "sound" than "tone."
I probably do use the words interchangeably.
In the end, they're just words.
As long as the person you're trying to communicate with understands what you're getting at, I'm not 100% convinced the taxonomy matters.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
(I would also swap Geezer's definitions of "tone" and "sound"-- "sound" seems to me like a broader all-encompassing term-- but like I said, not my debate )
Perhaps you are correct.
Words in and of themselves are meaningless. It is the meaning we as humans ascribe to them that gives us the ability to communicate in minutia.
With all due respect to Tom: Tom, I disagree with your concept of an "open" tone. Or else you might state that a tone that is not open is almost never a good thing.
...Geezer
In your example, people would only say "this person hadn't got to grips with the instrument yet" if I also mentioned it was a community group.
Maybe I shouldn't mention that.
I've certainly met good players who aren't fans of the sound of large bores-- I just didn't get a quote from them yesterday.
In hindsight, maybe my example is more a matter of "timbre" or "sound" than "tone."
I probably do use the words interchangeably.
In the end, they're just words.
As long as the person you're trying to communicate with understands what you're getting at, I'm not 100% convinced the taxonomy matters.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
(I would also swap Geezer's definitions of "tone" and "sound"-- "sound" seems to me like a broader all-encompassing term-- but like I said, not my debate
)Perhaps you are correct.
Words in and of themselves are meaningless. It is the meaning we as humans ascribe to them that gives us the ability to communicate in minutia.
With all due respect to Tom: Tom, I disagree with your concept of an "open" tone. Or else you might state that a tone that is not open is almost never a good thing.
...Geezer
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ttf_savio
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What is tone?
Cant be easy to describe what a tone is. Easier to listen or play it.
Leif
Leif
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
Quote from: savio on Nov 05, 2017, 06:49AMCant be easy to describe what a tone is. Easier to listen or play it.
Leif
I believe it is the effort in trying to define or describe it that raises our consciousness to strive for betterment by having a mental concept.
...Geezer
Leif
I believe it is the effort in trying to define or describe it that raises our consciousness to strive for betterment by having a mental concept.
...Geezer
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ttf_bigbassbone1
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What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 04, 2017, 08:57PMReally? If I say the Yankees are overrated, it doesn't mean they suck. They didn't. At least, not this year. They just weren't the best team, despite Joe Buck's fondest wishes.
I think maybe I don't understand English. Or, language or thinking.
Well.... no I guess not, it doesn't mean they suck. But by saying they are overrated you are telling someone that the Yankees are undeserving of the amount of people who DO rate them or the praise they give them. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, you are making a statement that presumably goes against the popular opinion. That's fine of course, but as demonstrated here in this thread you are going to probably need to justify that statement of you want to get a discussion out of it.
I am pretty sure that if after a performance you gave, a reviewer described your playing as "overrated" you wouldn't take that as a positive comment. Even in the knowledge that it meant you "didn't suck" you would probably want them to elaborate on that comment.
But perhaps not, I'm perfectly willing to accept it is me that doesn't understand English, or language or thinking. But I think rather than that being the case for you or me, it's probably just an internet thing
I think maybe I don't understand English. Or, language or thinking.
Well.... no I guess not, it doesn't mean they suck. But by saying they are overrated you are telling someone that the Yankees are undeserving of the amount of people who DO rate them or the praise they give them. Whether it's true or not doesn't matter, you are making a statement that presumably goes against the popular opinion. That's fine of course, but as demonstrated here in this thread you are going to probably need to justify that statement of you want to get a discussion out of it.
I am pretty sure that if after a performance you gave, a reviewer described your playing as "overrated" you wouldn't take that as a positive comment. Even in the knowledge that it meant you "didn't suck" you would probably want them to elaborate on that comment.
But perhaps not, I'm perfectly willing to accept it is me that doesn't understand English, or language or thinking. But I think rather than that being the case for you or me, it's probably just an internet thing
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ttf_watermailonman
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What is tone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 05, 2017, 06:13AMPerhaps you are correct.
Words in and of themselves are meaningless. It is the meaning we as humans ascribe to them that gives us the ability to communicate in minutia.
With all due respect to Tom: Tom, I disagree with your concept of an "open" tone. Or else you might state that a tone that is not open is almost never a good thing.
...Geezer
Well a tone that I describe as NOT open is compressed and can not expand. That is my definition of a NOT open tone. A tone that can expand and still consists of a good blend of complex overtones is what I define as an open tone. Open tones are best heard when they are not processed by a mic. It is the same difference with singers. An opera singer can expand his/her voice and doesn't need a mic to project. By project I don't mean to be heard like a laser beam thru an orchestra but a balanced sonorus sound that is just a bigger version of ones soft sound.
A pop and jazz singer needs a mic. It is a totally different concept. Not a bad concept.
A compressed trombone sound can take advantage of a mic and other things in another way in ones playing. In a mic you can whisper and still be as loud as needed. I would not say either is better. All tone-qualities can have their place as long as it is in the right context. It has less to do with if it is a large bore or a small bore. It is about resonance despite gear and mouthpiece.
/Tom
Words in and of themselves are meaningless. It is the meaning we as humans ascribe to them that gives us the ability to communicate in minutia.
With all due respect to Tom: Tom, I disagree with your concept of an "open" tone. Or else you might state that a tone that is not open is almost never a good thing.
...Geezer
Well a tone that I describe as NOT open is compressed and can not expand. That is my definition of a NOT open tone. A tone that can expand and still consists of a good blend of complex overtones is what I define as an open tone. Open tones are best heard when they are not processed by a mic. It is the same difference with singers. An opera singer can expand his/her voice and doesn't need a mic to project. By project I don't mean to be heard like a laser beam thru an orchestra but a balanced sonorus sound that is just a bigger version of ones soft sound.
A pop and jazz singer needs a mic. It is a totally different concept. Not a bad concept.
A compressed trombone sound can take advantage of a mic and other things in another way in ones playing. In a mic you can whisper and still be as loud as needed. I would not say either is better. All tone-qualities can have their place as long as it is in the right context. It has less to do with if it is a large bore or a small bore. It is about resonance despite gear and mouthpiece.
/Tom
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
Quote from: watermailonman on Nov 05, 2017, 12:23PMWell a tone that I describe as NOT open is compressed and can not expand. That is my definition of an NOT open tone. A tone that can expand and still consists of a good blend of complex overtones is what I define as an open tone. Open tones are best heard when they are not processed by a mic. It is the same difference with singers. An opera singer can expand his/her voice and doesn't need a mic to project. A pop singer needs a mic. It is different concepts. A compressed sound can take advantage of a mic and other things in ones playing. I would not say either is better. All tone-qualities can have their place as long as it is in the right context. It has less to do with if it is a large bore or a small bore. It is about resonance despite gear and mouthpiece.
/Tom
That is an interesting concept. My idea of an open tone is one where there is nothing in the way of it. There is no or minimal tension in the chest, throat, chops, etc. The chops are not too restrictive. The tone sounds like it is coming up from the gut completely unimpeded by anything. It is the body causing the sound, acting as a resonate chamber prior to the horn getting involved and yet getting out of the way of the sound before going through the horn.
...Geezer
/Tom
That is an interesting concept. My idea of an open tone is one where there is nothing in the way of it. There is no or minimal tension in the chest, throat, chops, etc. The chops are not too restrictive. The tone sounds like it is coming up from the gut completely unimpeded by anything. It is the body causing the sound, acting as a resonate chamber prior to the horn getting involved and yet getting out of the way of the sound before going through the horn.
...Geezer
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Quote from: LowrBrass on Nov 05, 2017, 05:37AMAs long as the person you're trying to communicate with understands what you're getting at, I'm not 100% convinced the taxonomy matters.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
Agree 99%.
Sometimes, we just have to break down what a term means, not to argue it, but to just make sure we're all talking about the same thing using the same words. We can call some property of a note "umani" and that's fine as long as we're all on the same page.
But that's just me. If everyone thought like that, humanity would never get anywhere. Have at it, word people.
Agree 99%.
Sometimes, we just have to break down what a term means, not to argue it, but to just make sure we're all talking about the same thing using the same words. We can call some property of a note "umani" and that's fine as long as we're all on the same page.
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
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What is tone?
Quote from: watermailonman on Nov 05, 2017, 12:23PMWell a tone that I describe as NOT open is compressed and can not expand. That is my definition of a NOT open tone. A tone that can expand and still consists of a good blend of complex overtones is what I define as an open tone. Open tones are best heard when they are not processed by a mic. It is the same difference with singers. An opera singer can expand his/her voice and doesn't need a mic to project. By project I don't mean to be heard like a laser beam thru an orchestra but a balanced sonorus sound that is just a bigger version of ones soft sound.
A pop and jazz singer needs a mic. It is a totally different concept. Not a bad concept.
I think it's important to mention along these lines that there are a whole lot of sound engineers out there who don't know how to capture the best trombone sound with their equipment. Mics and speakers can lie. And, plenty of studio musicians, heard live, are tremendous, versatile players with exceptional tones.
A pop and jazz singer needs a mic. It is a totally different concept. Not a bad concept.
I think it's important to mention along these lines that there are a whole lot of sound engineers out there who don't know how to capture the best trombone sound with their equipment. Mics and speakers can lie. And, plenty of studio musicians, heard live, are tremendous, versatile players with exceptional tones.
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ttf_VVJOFan
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What is tone?
This seems to be a debate of opinions. There are very few facts that can be drawn on to discuss tone- just our experiences and opinions. That is likely why it is so insoluble.
My opinion is that there is only tone/sound (in my experience the two words are interchangeable in casual use between musicians) but the hitch is each individual's aesthetic sense. As is abundantly clear from this discussion, the perception (and definition) of tone/sound is based on each individual's ideas.
What is, most likely, also true is that if individual's don't like the tone/sound that they are hearing they won't listen for long.
I love listening to Joe Alessi, Ray Anderson and Wycliffe Gordon. They all have very different sounds/tones but all speak the music they are playing in a continuous and convincing manner with their individual instrumental voices as the medium. Others will hate/like other players but will anyone spend
In the end, in my opinion, nothing will matter if a voice (sound/tone) turns listeners off.
My opinion is that there is only tone/sound (in my experience the two words are interchangeable in casual use between musicians) but the hitch is each individual's aesthetic sense. As is abundantly clear from this discussion, the perception (and definition) of tone/sound is based on each individual's ideas.
What is, most likely, also true is that if individual's don't like the tone/sound that they are hearing they won't listen for long.
I love listening to Joe Alessi, Ray Anderson and Wycliffe Gordon. They all have very different sounds/tones but all speak the music they are playing in a continuous and convincing manner with their individual instrumental voices as the medium. Others will hate/like other players but will anyone spend
In the end, in my opinion, nothing will matter if a voice (sound/tone) turns listeners off.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
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What is tone?
I still think of tone and sound as being two different things. When a mother scolds her child, she doesn't say, "You watch your sound with me!", she admonishes, "You watch your tone with me!". So tone is more than sound, it is attitude (or style) and context as well as the actual sound.
...Gezer
...Gezer
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ttf_svenlarsson
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What is tone?
Guys, go practice! 
In all languages many words can be intercangeble. Tone can mean different things, so can sound. Noice for example.
When we talke about trombone music sound and tone can be the same, not necessary, but in this discousion it is mostly the same thing.
"I think tone is overrated", that depends. In some bands tone/sound does not matter much, can you play your part? Good, you are hired. In other band/orchestras the sound/tone makes the difference between getting the gig or not.
When I, and lots of other people listen to trombone music the sound/tone is very important.
Good trombone sounds depends on gengre and taste. Yes it does.
In all languages many words can be intercangeble. Tone can mean different things, so can sound. Noice for example.
When we talke about trombone music sound and tone can be the same, not necessary, but in this discousion it is mostly the same thing.
"I think tone is overrated", that depends. In some bands tone/sound does not matter much, can you play your part? Good, you are hired. In other band/orchestras the sound/tone makes the difference between getting the gig or not.
When I, and lots of other people listen to trombone music the sound/tone is very important.
Good trombone sounds depends on gengre and taste. Yes it does.
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ttf_ddickerson
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What is tone?
I think that when you talk about the quality of tone, you can look at it from a scientific concept.
To me, the best sounding tone, of any instrument, not just trombone, is where there is a mix of harmonics that are perfectly aligned up with the primary root tone.
When I was in High School, I would sit in the practice room for hours, playing long tones into the Conn Strobo tuner to achieve that all the harmonics lined up perfectly. IOW, I would learn to stop all the harmonic wheels in synchronocity. That was my desired goal then.
I think when you do that, your tone will be at its best, for what your situation produces. All the harmonics will be balanced.
When you play a long tone, and you achieve the root tone to be in tune, but the other wheels are spinning in different directions, your sound takes on different aspects. Good? Not so much.
To me, the best sounding tone, of any instrument, not just trombone, is where there is a mix of harmonics that are perfectly aligned up with the primary root tone.
When I was in High School, I would sit in the practice room for hours, playing long tones into the Conn Strobo tuner to achieve that all the harmonics lined up perfectly. IOW, I would learn to stop all the harmonic wheels in synchronocity. That was my desired goal then.
I think when you do that, your tone will be at its best, for what your situation produces. All the harmonics will be balanced.
When you play a long tone, and you achieve the root tone to be in tune, but the other wheels are spinning in different directions, your sound takes on different aspects. Good? Not so much.
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ttf_Pre59
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What is tone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 10, 2017, 07:00AMI still think of tone and sound as being two different things. When a mother scolds her child, she doesn't say, "You watch your sound with me!", she admonishes, "You watch your tone with me!". So tone is more than sound, it is attitude (or style) and context as well as the actual sound.
...Gezer
I agree with this, I'd like to hear more diverse tones use in a musical context especially when blending in with or supporting other instruments.
...Gezer
I agree with this, I'd like to hear more diverse tones use in a musical context especially when blending in with or supporting other instruments.
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ttf_GetzenBassPlayer
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What is tone?
I tend to use the word tone as a way to describe sound.
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ttf_savio
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
What is tone?
Quote from: svenlarsson on Nov 10, 2017, 07:28AMGuys, go practice!
Ok Svenne, I go practice I think thats the best thing to do.
This question is more about definitions of words? By the way, to improve my English, sound can also be noise from a car? Tone is the sound we trombonists try to make when we see a G in our sheet music?
Good tone? In words?....impossible. Sorry guys but its only possible on a Conn... 
Leif
Ok Svenne, I go practice
I think thats the best thing to do.This question is more about definitions of words? By the way, to improve my English, sound can also be noise from a car? Tone is the sound we trombonists try to make when we see a G in our sheet music?
Good tone? In words?....impossible. Sorry guys but its only possible on a Conn...
Leif
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ttf_watermailonman
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What is tone?
Quote from: Geezerhorn on Nov 10, 2017, 07:00AMI still think of tone and sound as being two different things. When a mother scolds her child, she doesn't say, "You watch your sound with me!", she admonishes, "You watch your tone with me!". So tone is more than sound, it is attitude (or style) and context as well as the actual sound.
...Gezer
What is tone?
It is obviously a very good question.
Go practice! Yes, a very good advice.
... but
some of us are thinkers for better and for worse.
I think Geezer is on to something here. The problem I have with your statement is I do the complete opposite association. Probably it is the language barrier
As Svenne says: yes, in swedish "Sound" (which is an English word we use in swedish) could mean the description of quality of tone, but if a swede said to me "you have a beautiful sound" as in swedish "du har ett snyggt sound" I would still not understand if it was the actual quality of my tone or if it was the over all quality of my playing he was referring to which includes vibrato and good taste. To me "vacker ton" describes "a beautiful sonourous played note". Maybe the swedish "ton" is not equal to the English "tone".
Nuances in the english language is difficult for us non native.
As Geezer says: a mother could say to a child "jag gillar inte tonen du använder mot mig". It would be the same use of the word as in English, and it would address manners, as to remark on the abcense if manners on how to speak respectfully to the mother (so our languages are not THAT different)
... still when speaking about music I do think "sound" is (has become) the wider concept and "tone" is the narrow concept. Tone is just the quality of how a note is played (or "WHAT note should be played here?" as in "Vilken ton ska det vara här?" ... hmm real confusing that note in English is translated to "ton" in swedish. I guess being non native disqualifies me from the discussion
... yeh, should go practice..
/Tom
...Gezer
What is tone?
It is obviously a very good question.
Go practice! Yes, a very good advice.
... but
some of us are thinkers for better and for worse.
I think Geezer is on to something here. The problem I have with your statement is I do the complete opposite association. Probably it is the language barrier
As Svenne says: yes, in swedish "Sound" (which is an English word we use in swedish) could mean the description of quality of tone, but if a swede said to me "you have a beautiful sound" as in swedish "du har ett snyggt sound" I would still not understand if it was the actual quality of my tone or if it was the over all quality of my playing he was referring to which includes vibrato and good taste. To me "vacker ton" describes "a beautiful sonourous played note". Maybe the swedish "ton" is not equal to the English "tone".
Nuances in the english language is difficult for us non native.
As Geezer says: a mother could say to a child "jag gillar inte tonen du använder mot mig". It would be the same use of the word as in English, and it would address manners, as to remark on the abcense if manners on how to speak respectfully to the mother (so our languages are not THAT different)
... still when speaking about music I do think "sound" is (has become) the wider concept and "tone" is the narrow concept. Tone is just the quality of how a note is played (or "WHAT note should be played here?" as in "Vilken ton ska det vara här?" ... hmm real confusing that note in English is translated to "ton" in swedish. I guess being non native disqualifies me from the discussion
... yeh, should go practice..
/Tom
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ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
What is tone?
Quote from: watermailonman on Nov 10, 2017, 12:45PMWhat is tone?
It is obviously a very good question.
Go practice! Yes, a very good advice.
... but
some of us are thinkers for better and for worse.
I think Geezer is on to something here. The problem I have with your statement is I do the complete opposite association. Probably it is the language barrier
As Svenne says: yes, in swedish "Sound" (which is an English word we use in swedish) could mean the description of quality of tone, but if a swede said to me "you have a beautiful sound" as in swedish "du har ett snyggt sound" I would still not understand if it was the actual quality of my tone or if it was the over all quality of my playing he was referring to which includes vibrato and good taste. To me "vacker ton" describes "a beautiful sonourous played note". Maybe the swedish "ton" is not equal to the English "tone".
Nuances in the english language is difficult for us non native.
As Geezer says: a mother could say to a child "jag gillar inte tonen du använder mot mig". It would be the same use of the word as in English, and it would address manners, as to remark on the abcense if manners on how to speak respectfully to the mother (so our languages are not THAT different)
... still when speaking about music I do think "sound" i's the wide concept and "tone" is the narrow concept. Tone is just the quality of how a note is played (or "WHAT note should be played here?" as in "Vilken ton ska det vara här?" ... hmm real confusing
... yeh, should go practice..
/Tom
Lol. I don't like the sound of your tone.
Got you to thinking, didn't I!
Would anyone say, "I don't like the sound of your sound!"? Maybe, but that would be redundant, wouldn't it.
Break time over. Time to make Svenne proud!
...Geezer
It is obviously a very good question.
Go practice! Yes, a very good advice.
... but
some of us are thinkers for better and for worse.
I think Geezer is on to something here. The problem I have with your statement is I do the complete opposite association. Probably it is the language barrier
As Svenne says: yes, in swedish "Sound" (which is an English word we use in swedish) could mean the description of quality of tone, but if a swede said to me "you have a beautiful sound" as in swedish "du har ett snyggt sound" I would still not understand if it was the actual quality of my tone or if it was the over all quality of my playing he was referring to which includes vibrato and good taste. To me "vacker ton" describes "a beautiful sonourous played note". Maybe the swedish "ton" is not equal to the English "tone".
Nuances in the english language is difficult for us non native.
As Geezer says: a mother could say to a child "jag gillar inte tonen du använder mot mig". It would be the same use of the word as in English, and it would address manners, as to remark on the abcense if manners on how to speak respectfully to the mother (so our languages are not THAT different)
... still when speaking about music I do think "sound" i's the wide concept and "tone" is the narrow concept. Tone is just the quality of how a note is played (or "WHAT note should be played here?" as in "Vilken ton ska det vara här?" ... hmm real confusing
... yeh, should go practice..
/Tom
Lol. I don't like the sound of your tone.
Got you to thinking, didn't I!
Would anyone say, "I don't like the sound of your sound!"? Maybe, but that would be redundant, wouldn't it.
Break time over. Time to make Svenne proud!
...Geezer
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:25 pm
What is tone?
Quote from: svenlarsson on Nov 10, 2017, 07:28AMGuys, go practice!
In all languages many words can be intercangeble. Tone can mean different things, so can sound. Noice for example.
When we talke about trombone music sound and tone can be the same, not necessary, but in this discousion it is mostly the same thing.
"I think tone is overrated", that depends. In some bands tone/sound does not matter much, can you play your part? Good, you are hired. In other band/orchestras the sound/tone makes the difference between getting the gig or not.
When I, and lots of other people listen to trombone music the sound/tone is very important.
Good trombone sounds depends on gengre and taste. Yes it does.
Yes, yes. This was just to try to clear up a point of contention in another thread, and I thought it might make for an educational discussion.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 10, 2017, 07:30AMI think that when you talk about the quality of tone, you can look at it from a scientific concept.
To me, the best sounding tone, of any instrument, not just trombone, is where there is a mix of harmonics that are perfectly aligned up with the primary root tone.
When I was in High School, I would sit in the practice room for hours, playing long tones into the Conn Strobo tuner to achieve that all the harmonics lined up perfectly. IOW, I would learn to stop all the harmonic wheels in synchronocity. That was my desired goal then.
I think when you do that, your tone will be at its best, for what your situation produces. All the harmonics will be balanced.
When you play a long tone, and you achieve the root tone to be in tune, but the other wheels are spinning in different directions, your sound takes on different aspects. Good? Not so much.
Strobe tuners are awesome! It's too bad the real ones are so expensive, although there are some good tuning apps out there that do a good job of recreating the effect. When I was in school, I never tried what you describe: deliberately change my tone and see how the strobe changes. I always used them more as an ear training device, to sounds its drone and play intervals with it.
Along the lines of a scientific analysis of tone, in terms of the sustained waves, harmonics are important but I think there may be some subtle physics going on there. Any actively driven sound (via a bow or via pushing air through membranes) always produce harmonics of the harmonic series, in contrast to something like a drum which produces harmonics not of the harmonic series. In terms of trombone, I think a big part of achieving a good tone, in the physical sense of looking at the waveforms, is to reduce as much as possible random noise in the sound. There are other things that can happen, too - a big thing in electronic recording is the distortion of chopping off the tops of the peaks of waves above some amplitude - but at least this effect requires additional processing to achieve and as far as I know isn't possible to do just by playing a trombone.
In all languages many words can be intercangeble. Tone can mean different things, so can sound. Noice for example.
When we talke about trombone music sound and tone can be the same, not necessary, but in this discousion it is mostly the same thing.
"I think tone is overrated", that depends. In some bands tone/sound does not matter much, can you play your part? Good, you are hired. In other band/orchestras the sound/tone makes the difference between getting the gig or not.
When I, and lots of other people listen to trombone music the sound/tone is very important.
Good trombone sounds depends on gengre and taste. Yes it does.
Yes, yes. This was just to try to clear up a point of contention in another thread, and I thought it might make for an educational discussion.
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 10, 2017, 07:30AMI think that when you talk about the quality of tone, you can look at it from a scientific concept.
To me, the best sounding tone, of any instrument, not just trombone, is where there is a mix of harmonics that are perfectly aligned up with the primary root tone.
When I was in High School, I would sit in the practice room for hours, playing long tones into the Conn Strobo tuner to achieve that all the harmonics lined up perfectly. IOW, I would learn to stop all the harmonic wheels in synchronocity. That was my desired goal then.
I think when you do that, your tone will be at its best, for what your situation produces. All the harmonics will be balanced.
When you play a long tone, and you achieve the root tone to be in tune, but the other wheels are spinning in different directions, your sound takes on different aspects. Good? Not so much.
Strobe tuners are awesome!
It's too bad the real ones are so expensive, although there are some good tuning apps out there that do a good job of recreating the effect. When I was in school, I never tried what you describe: deliberately change my tone and see how the strobe changes. I always used them more as an ear training device, to sounds its drone and play intervals with it.Along the lines of a scientific analysis of tone, in terms of the sustained waves, harmonics are important but I think there may be some subtle physics going on there. Any actively driven sound (via a bow or via pushing air through membranes) always produce harmonics of the harmonic series, in contrast to something like a drum which produces harmonics not of the harmonic series. In terms of trombone, I think a big part of achieving a good tone, in the physical sense of looking at the waveforms, is to reduce as much as possible random noise in the sound. There are other things that can happen, too - a big thing in electronic recording is the distortion of chopping off the tops of the peaks of waves above some amplitude - but at least this effect requires additional processing to achieve and as far as I know isn't possible to do just by playing a trombone.
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ttf_davdud101
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:00 pm
What is tone?
FWIW, I've spent a good amount of timing using a spectral analysis app to see similar effects - how intentionally deadening the tone by choking it off or opening it up way too wide can affect which overtones are present and how strong they become. Definitely helped me understand a bit better what to aim for as far as tone because the overtones appeared must stronger-more solid when the tone was what I'd consider 'better'.
Fun stuff! I gotta try with a strobe tuner myself sometime.
Fun stuff! I gotta try with a strobe tuner myself sometime.
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ttf_savio
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:58 am
What is tone?
Dave, where to get that app? Is it for Windows ?
Leif
Leif
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ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 11, 2017, 05:45AMYes, yes. This was just to try to clear up a point of contention in another thread, and I thought it might make for an educational discussion.
Strobe tuners are awesome! It's too bad the real ones are so expensive, although there are some good tuning apps out there that do a good job of recreating the effect. When I was in school, I never tried what you describe: deliberately change my tone and see how the strobe changes. I always used them more as an ear training device, to sounds its drone and play intervals with it.
Along the lines of a scientific analysis of tone, in terms of the sustained waves, harmonics are important but I think there may be some subtle physics going on there. Any actively driven sound (via a bow or via pushing air through membranes) always produce harmonics of the harmonic series, in contrast to something like a drum which produces harmonics not of the harmonic series. In terms of trombone, I think a big part of achieving a good tone, in the physical sense of looking at the waveforms, is to reduce as much as possible random noise in the sound. There are other things that can happen, too - a big thing in electronic recording is the distortion of chopping off the tops of the peaks of waves above some amplitude - but at least this effect requires additional processing to achieve and as far as I know isn't possible to do just by playing a trombone.
Not just reducing random noise, but to make sure the harmonics are also in tune, and to line them all up, and stop them. This indicates the harmonics are also in tune. If you could get in front of one, and blow a note, you will see, that the different harmonics can go in both directions and never line up with your root tone. You can create special effects with your tone that make musical sense, but at least be able to play a tone with your harmonics lined up.
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
Strobe tuners are awesome!
It's too bad the real ones are so expensive, although there are some good tuning apps out there that do a good job of recreating the effect. When I was in school, I never tried what you describe: deliberately change my tone and see how the strobe changes. I always used them more as an ear training device, to sounds its drone and play intervals with it.Along the lines of a scientific analysis of tone, in terms of the sustained waves, harmonics are important but I think there may be some subtle physics going on there. Any actively driven sound (via a bow or via pushing air through membranes) always produce harmonics of the harmonic series, in contrast to something like a drum which produces harmonics not of the harmonic series. In terms of trombone, I think a big part of achieving a good tone, in the physical sense of looking at the waveforms, is to reduce as much as possible random noise in the sound. There are other things that can happen, too - a big thing in electronic recording is the distortion of chopping off the tops of the peaks of waves above some amplitude - but at least this effect requires additional processing to achieve and as far as I know isn't possible to do just by playing a trombone.
Not just reducing random noise, but to make sure the harmonics are also in tune, and to line them all up, and stop them. This indicates the harmonics are also in tune. If you could get in front of one, and blow a note, you will see, that the different harmonics can go in both directions and never line up with your root tone. You can create special effects with your tone that make musical sense, but at least be able to play a tone with your harmonics lined up.
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
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ttf_Geezerhorn
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
What is tone?
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 07:36AMNot just reducing random noise, but to make sure the harmonics are also in tune, and to line them all up, and stop them. This indicates the harmonics are also in tune. If you could get in front of one, and blow a note, you will see, that the different harmonics can go in both directions and never line up with your root tone. You can create special effects with your tone that make musical sense, but at least be able to play a tone with your harmonics lined up.
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
Amazon has real strobe tuners and Black Friday is coming!
Thanks for the info on this. Yet another high-tech learning aid!
...Geezer
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
Amazon has real strobe tuners and Black Friday is coming!
Thanks for the info on this. Yet another high-tech learning aid!
...Geezer
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ttf_Andrew Meronek
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:25 pm
What is tone?
Quote from: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 07:36AMNot just reducing random noise, but to make sure the harmonics are also in tune, and to line them all up, and stop them. This indicates the harmonics are also in tune. If you could get in front of one, and blow a note, you will see, that the different harmonics can go in both directions and never line up with your root tone. You can create special effects with your tone that make musical sense, but at least be able to play a tone with your harmonics lined up.
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
How do you do this and control for not playing sharp or flat compared to the strobe's reference?
I've got an APP on my iPhone, let me see, called 'Strobe Tuner' but I can't testify as to how accurate it is. Well, I just got a message that it isn't available in the APP Store anymore because it's not updated of IOS 11. Go figure.
How do you do this and control for not playing sharp or flat compared to the strobe's reference?
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ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 11, 2017, 08:31AMHow do you do this and control for not playing sharp or flat compared to the strobe's reference?
I learned what it feels and sounds like when on the strobe, then when I'm practicing or playing I try to match. After recording myself, I begin to learn to trust what I hear behind the bell. It's not something you have to do every day for the rest of your life, or anything like that. When I got it spot on, I paid attention to the sound I was getting, and what I was doing to get it spot on.
Then, I would work through all the pitches matching the sound for each partial. When I got my Kanstul, it reacted totally different than my King 2B+, so I had to start over for several months to get my tone back to where I wanted it. I can listen to my tone now, and know when I'm getting the harmonics close to spot on.
As far as playing in tune, I still use the drone every now and then to relearn how the sweet spot sounds, so I know what to shoot for when I'm playing. But when your harmonics line up with your root tone, you can tell better when you're in tune or not.
I just purchased the iStrobeSoft which is from Peterson's design, and tried it out. I noticed that each harmonic (only 4) always rotated in sync, but they didn't all light up at the same intensity until the harmonics were present. I guess. So, I can't say for sure if this will perform as good as the old Conn did. It did seem to respond to my tone as to whether the harmonic bands were equally lighted or not.
It was $9.99 - can't say if it was worth it or not. LOL!
I learned what it feels and sounds like when on the strobe, then when I'm practicing or playing I try to match. After recording myself, I begin to learn to trust what I hear behind the bell. It's not something you have to do every day for the rest of your life, or anything like that. When I got it spot on, I paid attention to the sound I was getting, and what I was doing to get it spot on.
Then, I would work through all the pitches matching the sound for each partial. When I got my Kanstul, it reacted totally different than my King 2B+, so I had to start over for several months to get my tone back to where I wanted it. I can listen to my tone now, and know when I'm getting the harmonics close to spot on.
As far as playing in tune, I still use the drone every now and then to relearn how the sweet spot sounds, so I know what to shoot for when I'm playing. But when your harmonics line up with your root tone, you can tell better when you're in tune or not.
I just purchased the iStrobeSoft which is from Peterson's design, and tried it out. I noticed that each harmonic (only 4) always rotated in sync, but they didn't all light up at the same intensity until the harmonics were present. I guess. So, I can't say for sure if this will perform as good as the old Conn did. It did seem to respond to my tone as to whether the harmonic bands were equally lighted or not.
It was $9.99 - can't say if it was worth it or not. LOL!
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ttf_ddickerson
- Posts: 0
- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2018 11:59 am
What is tone?
Quote from: Andrew Meronek on Nov 11, 2017, 08:31AMHow do you do this and control for not playing sharp or flat compared to the strobe's reference?
I learned what it feels and sounds like when on the strobe, then when I'm practicing or playing I try to match. After recording myself, I begin to learn to trust what I hear behind the bell. It's not something you have to do every day for the rest of your life, or anything like that. When I got it spot on, I paid attention to the sound I was getting, and what I was doing to get it spot on.
Then, I would work through all the pitches matching the sound for each partial. When I got my Kanstul, it reacted totally different than my King 2B+, so I had to start over for several months to get my tone back to where I wanted it. I can listen to my tone now, and know when I'm getting the harmonics close to spot on.
As far as playing in tune, I still use the drone every now and then to relearn how the sweet spot sounds, so I know what to shoot for when I'm playing. But when your harmonics line up with your root tone, you can tell better when you're in tune or not.
I just purchased the iStrobeSoft which is from Peterson's design, and tried it out. I noticed that each harmonic (only 4) always rotated in sync, but they didn't all light up at the same intensity until the harmonics were present. I guess. So, I can't say for sure if this will perform as good as the old Conn did. It did seem to respond to my tone as to whether the harmonic bands were equally lighted or not.
It was $9.99 - can't say if it was worth it or not. LOL!
I learned what it feels and sounds like when on the strobe, then when I'm practicing or playing I try to match. After recording myself, I begin to learn to trust what I hear behind the bell. It's not something you have to do every day for the rest of your life, or anything like that. When I got it spot on, I paid attention to the sound I was getting, and what I was doing to get it spot on.
Then, I would work through all the pitches matching the sound for each partial. When I got my Kanstul, it reacted totally different than my King 2B+, so I had to start over for several months to get my tone back to where I wanted it. I can listen to my tone now, and know when I'm getting the harmonics close to spot on.
As far as playing in tune, I still use the drone every now and then to relearn how the sweet spot sounds, so I know what to shoot for when I'm playing. But when your harmonics line up with your root tone, you can tell better when you're in tune or not.
I just purchased the iStrobeSoft which is from Peterson's design, and tried it out. I noticed that each harmonic (only 4) always rotated in sync, but they didn't all light up at the same intensity until the harmonics were present. I guess. So, I can't say for sure if this will perform as good as the old Conn did. It did seem to respond to my tone as to whether the harmonic bands were equally lighted or not.
It was $9.99 - can't say if it was worth it or not. LOL!