Tenor Clef - Betamax of Clefs?

[robcat2075]

Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that VHS won the battle with Betamax because at the time most pornography was available on VHS only, and that was enough to tip the scales. Not sure what the metaphor is for tenor clef on that, but it's bound to be an obscene one...

VHS had at least two big plusses: Much lower prices for the players and longer running-times for the tapes.

A standard two-hour VHS tape could hold most movies, while a Betamax tape was limited to one hour at the outset.

Histories vary as to whether the porn thing was a factor at all. I had my first VHS deck for ten years before i found out there were stores renting it.

[AtomicClock]

Well, the first time I visited a rental store, I certainly remember a curtain covering a doorway that led to a room where children weren't allowed. I could only speculate what was in there.

[VJOFan]

alto clef to fake harmony parts

Trying to get my head around this. I can only make it work mentally if I am thinking of a Bb transposed treble clef part. (Or a tenor clef part) In that case reading in alto clef puts me a third away.

Am I missing how it would work with bass clef or concert pitch treble?

[HappyAmateur]

If your goal is finding lots of popular music to play, I'd also suggest learning to read treble clef "down an octave" where is played

Note that the relationship of treble and bass clefs (particularly in piano music) is that is (Middle C). Some parts I've seen have some high notes written in embedded treble clef -- something much more common in cello music. In the bass clef 1st trombone part of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" there is a high A and a high C both written in treble clef inside a normal bass clef part.

In my (truly ignorant) opinion, treble clef an octave down splits the difference between tenor and alto clefs and therefore could easily replace both.

It is ironic that tenor clef is named for the tenor vocal part, but tenor vocalists in classical choral works replaced tenor clef with treble an octave down ages ago. Trombones/cellos never made that same shift. Perhaps this is due to the ubiquitous use of piano in choral instruction/rehearsal driving a change to something more common/familiar, whereas trombones/cellos were perhaps happy to stick with what they knew rather than fix what wasn't broken?

Bass clef an octave up is also an interesting alternative to eliminate ledger lines (and standard notation for the bass recorder).

I feel like ledger lines could still be very effectively reduced if all music only had treble and bass clefs and the use of 8va/8vb, and such a move would simplify things for both composers and performers (once established as standard; the transition would likely be frustrating for many people).

Of course, I say all this selfishly as a new trombonist who already knows treble and bass clef and doesn't want to make my middle-aged brain learn another new thing (a new instrument alone is nearly more than I can handle). So I'll freely admit that if I had already been an established trombone player I'd be quite upset if composers decided to suddenly switch tenor to treble 8vb.

[CalgaryTbone]

The "C" clef is as I understand it, technically one clef. It's a moveable "C" clef - where you have the two backwards C's come together to show the location of middle C. A few places that were common at one time were given names - Soprano clef with the C on the bottom line; Mezzo-soprano on the second line; Alto on the third line; Tenor on the fourth line; Baritone on the top line. Alto and Tenor are the only ones that have survived into modern times (except perhaps in modern performances of early music). Just to make it even more confusing, I have seen examples of "C" clef, where the two C's come together on a space (as an indication of treble down an octave, for instance). Also, I remember in Ear Training class at Juilliard, where we were presented with examples of "G" (treble) and "F" (bass) clefs that could be moved to place their named notes in different spots (actual examples of Bach chorales with the "G" clef actually down one line (the tighter circle in the clef indication twists around "G" - in this case it was the bottom line). There was another way of indicating Baritone clef by moving the "F" clef down one line.

The thing is that Tenor clef isn't something new - it's actually quite old and is one of the 2 survivors (along with Alto) of a very old notation, as are Treble and Bass clefs as we know them. Tenor clef is also very prominent in music for Bassoon and Cello. That alone is a good reason to learn it, since a lot of great solo music that we like to play comes from those instruments. The orchestral music that was referred to in a previous post (Brahms) that used Bass and Treble is just a bad edition - the original is in Alto all the way through the part. A couple of French composers did that (sparingly), but Treble wasn't a clef that you would see with any regularity (except in B flat transposition in Brass Band) until more recently. I think that's partly a jazz influence (fake books are in treble clef), and partly that some arrangers aren't well versed in C clefs.

Personally, I like connecting with the original notation and thereby connecting with the history of the instrument. I also like using clefs to be able to practice music in different registers and keys. If you don't learn at least the 3 clefs we see regularly, you limit the music you can practice and perform. That's OK if you're not ambitious, but then don't complain if it shows up on your stand and you can't read it.

Jim Scott

[BGuttman]

Jim, I've seen that embedded treble clef in some cello music as well.

I agree that the bass clef part for Academic Festival is a "cop out" part, only made worse by the embedded treble clef.

When I was a kid taking lessons from a guy who played in the NBC Symphony he passingly mentioned use of treble, bass, and 5 C clefs as a way to transpose. He was a trumpeter and transposing parts was pretty routine (unless you had a closet full of trumpets in different keys). Also, as a backing for lots of soloists they might want a tune in a different key to better fit their range. Being able to transpose quickly and on the fly was a survival skill. Wish I had learned this when I was still a kid.

[CalgaryTbone]

When I was in school, the trumpet players studying with Vacchianno all worked out of the Bass clef Arbans to use Bass clef as a way of reading E flat and E natural transpositions, as well as reading F parts as one step away, in the same way they would read C parts on a B flat instrument. Meanwhile, all the trombone players were using the trumpet book, reading it like tenor and then also reading it in alto and bass. We would also have to play in the adjacent key (B flat etudes in B natural for instance).

At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.

We were playing an opera earlier this season where the French horns had 7 different transpositions in their parts. I feel pretty lucky that we only have 3 clefs that come up in any regular way. It's good for your brain to learn to read in different ways, but I'm glad that anytime I wish to venture out of the usual 3 clefs, it's for fun or to jump in to help out on a missing part - not something that is part of my usual job description where I would be expected to play it perfectly.

JS

[tbdana]

I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.

[BGuttman]

I dunno. I like tenor clef. It fits best for the most notes trombones usually are required to play.

This is true.

Transposed treble clef as used by mid 19th century brass instruments put the useful range of all the instruments between 2 ledger lines down and two ledger lines up (much like we see for trombone parts in tenor clef).

[LeTromboniste]

Yup, all clefs are movable (or better yet, it's just one bit gamut of notes, and the clef just tells you which lines are visible). G on the first line (often called French violin clef) is not uncommon in old prints or manuscripts. C on the first line was the standard clef for a choral soprano line until the 19th century. Just open any mid (even late) 1800s Breitkopf score of Mozart, Beethoven, etc. It's a mandatory clef for conductors and collaborative pianists to be fluent with.

A lot of early trombone music is in baritone clef. In fact the very earliest solo piece specifically for trombone switches back and forth between bass and baritone clefs. Those low bass trombone parts in Gabrieli polychoral music? Sub-bass clef (F on the top line). Sometimes also shown by the Gamma clef (which indicates Gamma ut, which is the G at the bottom of the grand staff) alone or together with an F clef.

At a summer gig I used to play in upstate NY, one of my friends there was a clarinet player who was active in the Early Music scene on Renaissance woodwinds. We would occasionally play duets, and he would just say "what's a good key for you?" before we would play a tune. He could just see his part in any key - sort of like a giant movable C clef, where he could place the C anywhere he wanted. I was stuck with the 3 clefs I knew. It was humbling. Once in a while, he'd say can we do this key instead, because this shawm doesn't have a good F sharp, or something to that effect.

Playing with shawms is one of the most common reason I have to sight-transpose. We typically need to play anything with them either up a step or up a fifth, although sometimes also weirder transpositions. The ability to use any clef, octave-displaced, comes in very handy then.

[CalgaryTbone]

It could have been crumhorn (sp?) as well. He had a whole trunkful of instruments with him, even though there was no place for them to be used at this gig - just staying in shape. This was a talented guy - one evening when we were playing some duets, he suggested switching instruments. I forget what I ended up playing, but whatever it was, I had to play in a single octave in the tonic key for it - I could vaguely recall recorder fingerings for "the scale" from the 4th grade (or thereabouts). He had never played trombone - I got him to get the 2nd, 3rd and 4th harmonics in first and explained the slide positions, and he managed to play an easy duet - I don't remember much about my efforts on his instrument - alcohol may have been involved.

JS