Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 8:48 am
Actually, occurs to me that, for once, binding arbitration might be helpful in this circumstance. Most universities already have a code of conduct in some capacity. Adding arbitration teeth to it might be enough to actually get the document to mean something.
Matt, it seems to me that the document you shared has a few problems.
Waiver of Court Proceedings
Confidentiality
Lack of appeal process
With those issues I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome corrupted systems.
If your answer is that the arbitrator and investigator are both neutral third parties and that the victim has a say in who they are, then I’d say that might help. But I’m not convinced it would be enough to overcome the issues present.
Additionally, I’m a firm believer that if an accusation is found to be true, it should be public knowledge. Likewise, a person who makes false accusations should be exposed. The obvious problem with that is that if the system continually fails dispense justice correctly and “protects their own” then legitimate victims are essentially abused yet again by being labeled something they are not. But I digress. That was not the main point I was trying to make.
FYI the trend is away from binding arbitration and confidentiality for sexual harassment/assault allegations. Indeed, both the federal and several state governments in the U.S. have recently passed laws invalidating requirements for arbitration and confidentiality for these claims, precisely because those methods have so often been used to protect institutions and perpetrators at the expense of victims. So, that's probably not the way to go in 2025.
For instance, California, where I live, passed a specific law saying that any binding arbitration or confidentiality requirement for sexual harassment/assault claims involving any employer or employee is invalid and cannot be enforced. The feds have done the same thing for claims in the federal government employment context, too. That's the trend.
You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.
No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.
Simple as pie.
I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making it out to be. You’ve just asserted them to be the same.
I didn't assert them to be anything, I made a logical connection between them. Politics is about context, and as a human cannot be separated from his/her context, there is no behaviour without context; hence every human action can - and maybe should - be deemed political.
One reason for this, is that everybody - consciously or not - has a policy towards everybody else, and take actions according to each policy, and those policies are, by necessity, derived from each context in which the individual meets those others.
Another reason for deeming all behaviour political, is that as a person's private actions derive from a context, any change in that context from political reasons also will affect the private actions of that person, when a change in a person's context from personal reasons also provoke a change in political choices and views. There are plenty of examples on this reciprocity.
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell? Brave Vanessa Fralick! I don't think think it's easy. Nor to tell about it, but the worst must have been to experience such violence. I call it violence because it's kind of psychological violence. And for her it maybe has been hurting all this years.
Let's just be better humans? We as teachers have a big responsibility.
In a way I think it's the road to be great trombone players too. I'm thinking about the other interesting thread about how to be a great trombone player.
Savio wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:51 am
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?
I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
I am not a lawyer, so I wouldn't recommend literally putting exactly that document in place w/o review from an actual lawyer. If there are restrictions in place in CA, for example, then there must be some other way to essentially say that "under situation x y will happen".
It might not fix all (or perhaps even most) instances, but it might at least help with instances like this one where there appears to be written, documented records of the harassment.
If it needs additional clauses to prevent the employees from suing the entity, then that seems like it would be a good clause to add. A more rigorous appeals process and some degree of confidentiality seem like good ideas too.
Savio wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:51 am
I'm sad to read all this stories. There has been so many. And maybe there is many more who are afraid to tell?
I don't think there is a woman out there who doesn't have similar stories to tell, if they dared. Mostly, women learn in no uncertain terms to be gracious, to be quiet, and to endure. Failure to do that comes with crushing consequences. You don't even hear 1% of what happens to women.
I believe you. And I'm so sorry. I think we older men have listen men boast about it a lot in our time. And I'm not exactly guiltless over the years.... I'm so sorry and I believe you. It just has to change. Not only in the trombone world.
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:
Bach5G wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 1:24 pm
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
To Gabe’s point about binding arbitration in the NYP case, it appears that neither Muckey nor Liang will return to the orchestra. After losing the initial arbitration, the orchestra refused to re-engage them, and the Union is not contesting its decision (after a majority of NYP musicians refused to appear on stage with them). This is a relatively recent update from, I think, a reliable source:
Yes, thanks for being open to change your mind. I think all of us - especially men who've been in this business for a few decades - have had a lot to learn about this. I have my own regrets about my words and actions in the past...but show me someone who claims to have no regrets and I'll assume I'm looking at a sociopath, a liar, or both.
Thank you, Gabe, for sharing your story. I worked as a drug and alcohol counselor for nearly 12 years. I know through secondhand experience how difficult it can be to listen to or read other’s trauma—the stories of people who have been abused. Helping other people re-process their use and their trauma sometimes traumatizes the counselor. For the abused person, speaking or writing about it usually brings on symptoms experienced during the initial incident—fight, flight, freeze or fawn response. I also know how difficult it is to work through one’s own trauma that is not sexual, but still traumatic.
Too many people have a history of trauma and abuse—not just people with a substance use disorder, but too may people, period. The populations I worked with turned to substances in their attempts to dull the pain and push away the memories. Not all do that, but a great majority.
I am not surprised it took Vanessa 18 years to speak out. The experience itself makes it difficult for the abused person to describe and put into words. It affects all areas of the brain, as Gabor Maté has said, and prevents the mind from making any kind of sense of the experience.
To add to Vanessa’s pressures, there is the student-teacher relationship, the high-pressure arena of a master class, and the small community of individuals who rise to the very top of the profession. All that, and more, make it so very difficult to speak about it.
Counselors and therapists are there to help people learn to deal and cope with traumatic and abusive events, but there is a very different relationship to the person and the event when it is made public. Some of it is supportive. More often, it has been degrading and dismissive. In the past, i.e., a male-dominated culture that was too often misogynistic if not patronizing, such events were probably just as common, but rarely discussed. When brought to public attention, stories about sexual abuse usually devolved into a “he said, she said” argument.
Since people started speaking about such events—grooming, taking advantage, rape, etc.—we are hearing more stories like this. Think of the #metoo movement. One the one hand, it is disheartening and awful to hear these stories. That other humans could be so selfish about and careless towards their fellow humans is heart-breaking. On the other hand, that these kinds of stories are heard now at all testifies to the courage of the abused. The caring and compassionate side in all of us cannot help but be moved. (If you’re not moved, I ask with the greatest respect that you develop some introspection.)
So: I applaud Vanessa Fralick and others like her for speaking out. And think about—it took her 18 years to discuss it in the open. That’s a long time.
& & & & &
On a personal note, I studied with Mr. Ellefson occasionally before his time in Seattle, and prior to his time at IU. (I am aware, of course, that he contributes to TC from time to time.) Although I was never a target—I’m a white male, a population rarely victimized in this particular population—Peter is not the first teacher I’ve had who took advantage of students.
Nevertheless, I remember some positive things: He is a tough teacher who demands perfection. He taught me to keep going when playing. Don’t stop. It’s as if you’re playing for a ballet. If you make a mistake, you have to keep going. You can’t ask the dancers and the orchestra to stop and back up a few bars so you can play that lick again to get it right. He taught me that mistakes are just that, and nothing more. Don’t apologize for making a mistake—unless it was deliberate, in which case it’s not a mistake, and it needs an apology.
& & & & &
It has been a difficult weekend, reading about this and reconciling my thoughts and memories with other people’s experiences. I’m going to try to practice to bring a little peace of mind.
Kenneth Biggs
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them have never happened.
—Mark Twain (attributed)
Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:37 am
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
I have two doubts about this.
Yes, the contract says they will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place, but... all the more pressure on the institution to get a finding of "no harassment".
Because... it's not easy attracting star teachers, the sort with reputations that attract exceptional students, the sort that may even actually be effective teachers, groping and harassing aside.
I don't know if the current individual counts as a star, but the student has to wonder who is perceived as more essential to the institution: the no-name student from Pawtucket or the teacher with the orchestra principal post and 25 students who enrolled because they wanted to study with HIM?
Other doubt... the student has to sign this, and sign away rights he would have otherwise had, or not be allowed to enroll? Will that even hold up? It's like a pre-nup you are made to sign right before a wedding, it's probably not valid because it was "under duress".
More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...
Matt K wrote: ↑Mon Feb 17, 2025 11:37 am
As noted, normally binding arbitration is used to shield the entity, not to restrict who the institution may hire. In this case, intention is to create a contract that says the institution will fire the employee if the arbitration determines the harassment took place. It's more like a three-way agreement between the institution, the student, and the faculty.
More energy should be put into preventing these interactions from happening. Clear training of faculty, rules limiting extra-curricular interactions between teacher and student, etc...
Just as I said in my first post. You do not need to socialize with your students. The private lesson situation remains a problem though. Could be all lessons should be in public or at least should be group lessons or video lessons or in rooms with walls of glass so it is impossible to hide. My workplace is like that. There is no angle in any corner of any room that can not be seen from outside, and I work as a computer programmer. I do not know why they built our particular workplace like that. It could be they want to make sure we work and not sleep at work.
/Tom
Last edited by imsevimse on Tue Feb 18, 2025 8:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
----------------------------------------------------------------------- Life is not a rehearsal
Yup Bach5G disappeared. Not a leg or a thought to stand on.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
Mon Feb 17, 2025 10:25 pm
Bach5G wrote: ↑
Friends: I have followed the comments and have come to the conclusion that you are right and I am wrong. I apologize to Ms. F. After considering NGrinder’s comments in particular, I can see why she might have hesitated to come forward with her complaints and, noting that the incident appears to have occurred in a non-institutional setting, there were likely few practical avenues of recourse open to her.
Yes thank you. I saw this.
So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.
WGWTR180 wrote: ↑Tue Feb 18, 2025 7:58 am
Yes thank you. I saw this.
So give him a break then. This kind of thoughtful willingness to reevaluate one's position is the kind of thing we should be rewarding, not condemning.
Yes I clearly messed up the order when reading the posts. He and I have spoken.
