TromboneChat

Hi, folks,

when I studied with the Hamburg Conservatory back in the 70ies, I first was given a refurbished Bach 42B, which my Prof. had in use while performing with NDR Symphony. The teachers recommended Giardinelli 4D mouthpieces for the students. After a while, they wanted me to take an 88H instead of the Bach, background was sound and better playability (?). Anyways, I still was not on the Conn Remington, kept going with the 4D. Later on, I decided not being good enough for going professional in music but continued playing trombone on a semiprofessional basis. Years later, I got hand on a 1964 Conn 88H from Staatsoper Hamburg and had it for a long period of time until life had beaten it up. Still played the 4D. I never was too happy with that combo but could not find out for anything better.
Fast forward: A couple of years ago, I decided to replace my small bore trombone with Conn 88H or 42B, again. Got the LT42B. Had Giardinelli 3G on the 42, much better than the stock 6.5AL, which I put into the drawer. So I did with the 42, it turned out to be not my cup of tea. And in between, I mainly was on trumpet.
Since I retired now from my daily job and the trumpet, I pulled out the 42, still in as new condition, it only had played 1 concert with a wind players symphonic orchestra.
And - nothing worked out as it was supposed to. The large 3G now was too much for me. A 12C Bach with large shank I have is a bad idea for the large horn. And the 4D with that wacky adapter? No not really, a 3D with an "F" - rim is very nice, has an 104 diameter / 26mm. But in return, it comes with a tubby sound.
Allright. Not satisfied with any of my trombones with the exception of the brand-new 354E Yammie, which runs on Giar 6D.
Now, I'm stubborn. IF the R&D at the factories is not working mindlessly, there must be a good reason for them to provide the new horns with the mouthpieces they put into the cases.
These two mpcs were not particularly comfortable in the first run nor did I like the sound, but after a while of settling in both of them turned out to be a very nice fit. Absolutely. Original 6.5AL on Bach 42, original King 7C on 3B/F. The 7C is not the best choice for me due to the sharpness of the inner edge of the rim, but it plays very well with the 3B and took away the quirks from the range around high Bb and up. So did the 6.5AL on the 42. Remains of a disturbing vibration at high Bb disappeared completely (it was mainly caused by poor greasing of loose parts of the valve and of the tuning slide). Both horns play nicely in tune and offer their typical sound.

My results: Try the original stock mouthpiece if nothing else helps for satisfaction. Maybe, you can take advantage of doing so.
My best guess is, the R&D guys at the major brands knew what they were doing, possibly the delivered stock mouthpiece is part of the instrument design in mass production surroundings.

Sorry for the length of this, but I've got some time to write sth boring for you...
Greetz, John

I always give away or sell the mouthpiece that comes with a new horn, without trying it. I am too stubborn to try to adapt to a piece of metal, when the metal can be fashioned to adapt to me.

You are right that the mouthpieces they give with a horn are often a perfect design for that instrument, other than the Jinbao Alto. Imagine my disappointment when my new T-396A did not include a mouthpiece at all, let alone a new Griego Alessi 1C.

The factory supplied mouthpiece is an average size for an average player. Many of us are not average and need something either larger or smaller. But some of us are average and they work fine.

I’m surprised you could play the 6D, that is tiny. I find it very hard to get a not trumpet sound.

Elow wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:41 am I’m surprised you could play the 6D, that is tiny. I find it very hard to get a not trumpet sound.

6D isn't that small it is a 12 sized rim with a C+ cup depth

@Elow,
I think, it has to do with my 20+ years of trumpet playing. Subsequently, 6D does not feel tiny. I sure can produce a trumpety sound..., no, no, even then it is still trombone, the Gary Valente way... But usually the small bore sounds quite normal with that mouthpiece.
I admit, learning playing trumpet back then has not been a piece of cake, boy, that were tiny mpcs ! But I had to take the trumpet in our jazzband. Nobody else wanted to memorize all the music. And we played for 15 years and had lots of fun...

My 70s King catalogs showed they only supplied two mouthpieces across their entire trombone line, one model small shank for all the small bore tenors and one model large shank for the large bore tenors and even the Dou Gravis .562 bore bass. I think they were going for the economy of scale - sourcing only two mouthpieces was cheaper and easier than four or five or six...

Thanks, Kingfan. Oh, yes, "King Trombone Masterpieces" catalog. Had a look at it. Indeed, 11M for all small bores and 29 for .536, .547 and .562.
Hm. Strange to me for the 1490 bass trombone. The Duo Gravis has the bass sound I like most. Can't play bass trb.
But always kept an eye on this wonderful horn. No, no, I hope none of these will come across.
For now, I decided to put the King 3B aside. Practicing two trombones sort of side by side is - enough. But what else to do during covid lockdown times? I hope you all can keep up with your playing skills.
Our orchestra is down with no time limits in sight.

2b worked well for Urbie when supplied with the King 28

Most of the stock pieces come with decades of institutional inertia, not necessarily a lot of thought. The Bach 36 still comes with a 7C, for instance.

It's a "why change it when no one really cares" situation rather than a "we put a lot of research into this."

I am playing a new Eastman 534 tuba that came with a Shires mouthpiece. It is a very good Pickett mouthpiece. I wonder if the Eastman trombones include a good mouthpiece?...

I‘ve ended up with a couple of likely factory combinations, not all bought new or in one purchase.

I have a 1960 6h and a Conn 3 mouthpiece which work well together for me. The sound is surprisingly big without giving up too much upper range. Would the Conn 3 have been factory-supplied with a 6h in that era?

With my 36 Corp. I have tried a 7C Corp. which is ok and may work well as an all-rounder but I prefer something a bit bigger with that horn so far (I haven‘t had it for long so will spend more time on the 7C at some point). Again, does anyone know if 36 from that era would have come with a 7C?

The 6.5AL large shank is basically Bach's small shank tenor mouthpiece which includes the large shank adapter.
Shown on the left. The other mpc shows a regular end of the shank.


I found a discussion of this in the TC-forum, thanks, MattK!
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... nk#p103983

FWIW, it works well on the 42. IMHO, the 6.5AL delivery with the 42 shows, that Bach looked at the 42 as a derivate of the 36 tenor trombone with an option of using larger (bass) mouthpieces. A tenor for bass players?

Or kind of vice versa: The design of their 6.5AL is an invitation by Bach: If you want the 42 being a tenor, then feel free of using small shank mpcs on the 42 while using the adapter. Versatile, at least.

Maybe, I should stop asking, why Bach did that....

Have fun.

Well, original mouthpieces enable you to include a pristine mouthpiece when you sell the horn....

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:04 am The factory supplied mouthpiece is an average size for an average player. Many of us are not average and need something either larger or smaller. But some of us are average and they work fine.

Don Reed said when the Kenton guys got their 6H horns, Frank played the mouthpiece that came with it. All those special mouthpieces people look for came later. He said Frank didn't much care what piece it was. Musta been pretty average!

Average in terms of mouthpiece requirement. Well above in terms of ability.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:19 pm Most of the stock pieces come with decades of institutional inertia, not necessarily a lot of thought. The Bach 36 still comes with a 7C, for instance.

It's a "why change it when no one really cares" situation rather than a "we put a lot of research into this."

I was recently apprised of the following from Conn-Selmer:The Bach 42 comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL, Conn 88 comes with a Bach 5G, and the King 4B comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL.

While I agree with your: "institutional inertia/not a lot of thought/a lot of research" position, my question to Conn-Selmer is "Why?"

flotrb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:03 am my question to Conn-Selmer is "Why?"

For most models, they're only including a mouthpiece so that dealers have something to stick in the hole for display purposes, and to give idiots one fewer thing about which to complain.

If someone's buying a brand new 42/88/4B and doesn't already have a preferred suitable mouthpiece, they're clearly not a particularly advanced player (and they especially enjoy the gentle whooshing sound made by money as it moves away from their person), in which case a generic option is a perfectly reasonable starting point.

The exceptions should be instruments with distinct and/or uncommon requirements (altos/contras), and artist models where a signature mouthpiece is part of The Vision - Conn-Selmer do exactly this with the 2B Jiggs, which comes with the Jiggs 1A.

(FWIW I've definitely seen the Edwards model-formerly-known-as-Alessi advertised with a Griego Alessi mouthpiece included, so maybe Harrison was just unlucky, or maybe that's a dealer thing.)

flotrb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:03 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 2:19 pm Most of the stock pieces come with decades of institutional inertia, not necessarily a lot of thought. The Bach 36 still comes with a 7C, for instance.

It's a "why change it when no one really cares" situation rather than a "we put a lot of research into this."

I was recently apprised of the following from Conn-Selmer:The Bach 42 comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL, Conn 88 comes with a Bach 5G, and the King 4B comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL.

While I agree with your: "institutional inertia/not a lot of thought/a lot of research" position, my question to Conn-Selmer is "Why?"

42B has come with that mouthpiece for a long, long time.

88H used to come with Remington, but that stopped a while back, so they had to come with something new with the Gen II instruments.

4B used to come with the Benge Marcellus at some point, but those are gone too. So now they come with something else.

ithinknot wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:51 am If someone's buying a brand new 42/88/4B and doesn't already have a preferred suitable mouthpiece, they're clearly not a particularly advanced player

The overwhelming majority of new 42B/88H models are sold to non-musician parents of high school students.

Before the 4B came with the Marcellus it came with a King 29.

Again, the supplied mouthpiece is supposed to be an average mouthpiece to cover the largest number of players.

Some dealers will allow choice of mouthpiece. For example, Osmun Brass gave me a Yamaha 57 in place of the stock mouthpiece because I asked for a 4G size.

When JJ was asked what mouthpiece he used, his response was "The one that came with the horn".

I believe that would have been a King M31?

JJ played King M21 throughout his career. When he switched to a Yamaha 691 trombone he did not switch to a Yamaha mouthpiece, but continued to play the M21.

Bach 42s come with a 6.5A, not a 6.5AL. The 6.5A has a shallower cup but bigger throat and backbore than that of the 6.5AL.

Trombo wrote: ↑Fri Dec 25, 2020 1:13 pm JJ played King M21 throughout his career. When he switched to a Yamaha 691 trombone he did not switch to a Yamaha mouthpiece, but continued to play the M21.

I stand corrected. M21. Thanks

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 30, 2020 7:04 am The factory supplied mouthpiece is an average size for an average player. Many of us are not average and need something either larger or smaller. But some of us are average and they work fine.

When I bought my Yamaha 640 (.525) it came with a 48. It's in the 5g size ball park, but has a lot of 6.5al sound and playing characteristics. I use something else, but I think the 48 is a great match for that horn.

I also have an out of production 57 which came with a 621 (single trigger bass). I think it's a 2g size. Here again, I use something else, but it's a good match for the horn with which it was supplied.

bassclef wrote: ↑Fri Jan 08, 2021 10:46 am When I bought my Yamaha 640 (.525) it came with a 48. It's in the 5g size ball park, but has a lot of 6.5al sound and playing characteristics. I use something else, but I think the 48 is a great match for that horn.

I also have an out of production 57 which came with a 621 (single trigger bass). I think it's a 2g size. Here again, I use something else, but it's a good match for the horn with which it was supplied.

The Yamaha 48 mouthpiece is definitely smaller than a Bach 5G. It's really Yamaha's near-equivalent to a Bach 6½AL, with perhaps even a little smaller cup I.D.

I have an older Yamaha 57 which, though once promoted as a "bass trombone mouthpiece" is actually quite small (I measure ~25.50mm Cup I.D., 6.70mm throat) – making more like a Bach 5GS than a Bach 2G (26.75mm Cup I.D., 7.00mm throat). But it could be an outlier – I understand that more recent Yamaha 57s may have been larger. In any case, the 57 is no longer in Yamaha's catalog. They now jump from a 55 (largest tenor trombone mouthpiece) to a 58 (smallest bass trombone mouthpiece.

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Tue Dec 01, 2020 12:28 am I‘ve ended up with a couple of likely factory combinations, not all bought new or in one purchase.

I have a 1960 6h and a Conn 3 mouthpiece which work well together for me. The sound is surprisingly big without giving up too much upper range. Would the Conn 3 have been factory-supplied with a 6h in that era?

With my 36 Corp. I have tried a 7C Corp. which is ok and may work well as an all-rounder but I prefer something a bit bigger with that horn so far (I haven‘t had it for long so will spend more time on the 7C at some point). Again, does anyone know if 36 from that era would have come with a 7C?

I think the Conn 6H (0.500" bore) was supplied with a Conn 3 mouthpiece. Nice match.

Bach 36 trombones (0.525" bore) were probably supplied with a Bach 6½AL mouthpiece (much larger than a 7C). Pretty good match.

Older 36s came with a 7C. The ads I saw in the 1960s said so. We used smaller mouthpieces back then.

I think the 6.5AL is probably a better fit.

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 11:09 am

flotrb wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 9:03 am

I was recently apprised of the following from Conn-Selmer:The Bach 42 comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL, Conn 88 comes with a Bach 5G, and the King 4B comes with a Bach 6-1/2AL.

While I agree with your: "institutional inertia/not a lot of thought/a lot of research" position, my question to Conn-Selmer is "Why?"

42B has come with that mouthpiece for a long, long time.

88H used to come with Remington, but that stopped a while back, so they had to come with something new with the Gen II instruments.

4B used to come with the Benge Marcellus at some point, but those are gone too. So now they come with something else.

My 4B of the '80ies came with a Benge 6.5 AL, and a Gen II 88H come with a Conn 5G mpc, not the same as a Bach, the throat being quite larger... I liked both mpcs at the beginning, always looking for a tad larger throated mpc than the Bachs...

I think that the King 5B came with a Marcellus mpc, but not sure either...