TromboneChat

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:39 pm**

Hey guys,

I currently use a Doug Elliott mpc with the following parts: Rim -XT 102; Cup - XT C+; Shank - D2. I recently bought a new large bore horn and want to get a large shank and a deeper cup. Does anyone know which large bore shank would fit a C+ cup, and will that shank fit a G cup as well, or do I need two large shanks? I'd love to be able to interchange cups and shanks, but I'm not sure it can be done.

Thanks,
Mike

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:48 pm**

You'd need two shanks if you want to use two different cups. D8 and G8 respectively.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 1:52 pm**

You'd be best off with a new shank/cup set entirely for the big horn. I can't imagine the C+ would play super well on a .547.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:00 pm**

You could always get a small -> large shank converter. That's... basically... what a large shank 6.5AL is due to the super thick shank. But the results would invariably be less satisfactory than a D8 shank. Doug's new shanks (*) are really great... they make pretty shallow pieces sound much broader, in my experience, than you'd expect. You might want to start there and see how deep you need to go. The XT "E" paired with the new shanks is hands down my favorite piece.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:02 pm**

i also don't think a C+ will be a good match for a large bore. I use a G cup on mine (anything from E to H will work). All the shanks have the same thread but they are made with different depths to compensate for the different cup depths. A D8 shank on a G cup will be way too long. I have successfully gone 1 size in either direction, but Doug insists on using the correct shank for each cup.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:08 pm**

Matt K wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:00 pm You could always get a small -> large shank converter. That's... basically... what a large shank 6.5AL is due to the super thick shank. But the results would invariably be less satisfactory than a D8 shank. Doug's new shanks (*) are really great... they make pretty shallow pieces sound much broader, in my experience, than you'd expect. You might want to start there and see how deep you need to go. The XT "E" paired with the new shanks is hands down my favorite piece.

I gotta say, not much helpful advice in this comment, Matt. I'd never recommend a converter to anyone, or a C+ cup on large tenor (the D would be pushing it). Maybe Doug thinks otherwise.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:46 pm**

I'm not sure if I'd go as far as to say I recommended a small shank converter inasmuch as acknowledged their existence and indicated that the large shank would be superior and that something slightly deeper, the "E" cup in particular, might be a better fit. Although I will say I do have a C+ and a D8 that works quite well but I've been using the "E" cup for basically everything tenor recently.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:04 pm**

My new D8* actually works quite well on a D cup, but I haven't tried it on a C+ cup... I guess I should at least try it.

Right now I'm getting ready for ITF

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:04 pm**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 3:04 pm My new D8* actually works quite well on a D cup, but I haven't tried it on a C+ cup... I guess I should at least try it.

Right now I'm getting ready for ITF

Doug, Would I need a G8 (large shank) for a G cup? Also, any chance I can buy them before you head off to ITF? I left you a couple messages but yikes probably swamp with IRF stuff.

I’d love to be able to use the C+ for jazz work. I love that cup with a 102 rim!! But I need a deeper cup for other playing.

Thanks,
Mike

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:07 pm**

Yes, if you want to use both cups, you need both shanks.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 6:24 pm**

If I understand Doug's system correctly, his rule seems reasonable: Use the same (letter) shank as the cup. (e.g, use a G8 shank with an LT G cup; a C3 shank with an MT C cup). These two components meet at the throat, so if you want a smooth transition, use matching pieces.

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:44 pm**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:07 pm Yes, if you want to use both cups, you need both shanks.

Thanks, Doug. I can use the XT 102 rim on any XT cup though, right?

Posted: **Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:42 pm**

Correct

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:11 am**

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Jul 07, 2021 2:02 pm i also don't think a C+ will be a good match for a large bore. I use a G cup on mine (anything from E to H will work). All the shanks have the same thread but they are made with different depths to compensate for the different cup depths. A D8 shank on a G cup will be way too long. I have successfully gone 1 size in either direction, but Doug insists on using the correct shank for each cup.

I agree that a XT C+ cup on a large bore horn would not be appropriate for a lot of musical applications, but, I’ve tried it and the sound is really interesting. Of course I’ll use something like an XT G cup for most playing, but I love the sound of the XT C+, even on a .547 for a very interesting effect. For what I do, sound color is critical and I’ll do some crazy s*** to get the effect I want. My stuff is pretty far outside the mainstream.

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:18 am**

The E cup is kind of cool on large bore

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:21 am**

I love Steve Davis's sound on large bore and occasionally I try (not particularly successfully, admittedly) to emulate it and my go-to piece for that historically was my XT C until I got an XT C+.

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:26 am**

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:21 am I love Steve Davis's sound on large bore and occasionally I try (not particularly successfully, admittedly) to emulate it and my go-to piece for that historically was my XT C until I got an XT C+.

Cool! Glad to know I’m not alone.! Doug describes the XT C+ cup as “an interesting and versatile cup.” I couldn’t agree more! On both a small bore and a large bore horn it has a fairly bright but very full, clear sound that’s beautifully centered. I use an XT 102 rim and it is by far the most comfortable rim I’ve ever had. No sharp edges like most mouthpieces I encounter. For me it’s an ergonomic delight!

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:33 am**

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:18 am The E cup is kind of cool on large bore

I can imagine it is. I’ve always liked experimenting with unlikely combinations. Occasionally using a shallower cup on a large horn creates a cool sound, and using a larger cup on a small horn can create a great effect too. I’m not locked into any particular style of playing, I’m a composer so I simply look for whatever works to create the sound I want. I’m a child of the 70s so my attitude is “wow, yeah, like whatever works man.”

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am**

Yeah, I 2nd Harrisons comments about the E. You absolutely have to give it a try if you're thinking about ordering something slightly deeper anyway. XT E / E8* is unbelievably good, at least for me. When I got my E8* and compared it to my E8 shank, I was expecting a marginal change in sound but it was totally blown away by it.

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:10 am**

Matt K wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 9:36 am Yeah, I 2nd Harrisons comments about the E. You absolutely have to give it a try if you're thinking about ordering something slightly deeper anyway. XT E / E8* is unbelievably good, at least for me. When I got my E8* and compared it to my E8 shank, I was expecting a marginal change in sound but it was totally blown away by it.

I just ordered an XT G Cup and G8 shank. I’ll try the E combo next time around. Are you able to get a big, broad orchestral sound from the XT E?

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:20 am**

I wouldn't exactly call it big and broad - probably not something an actual symphony player would use - but it's really good for what it is, a depth between a 6-1/2 and a 5GS. It would be great for Bolero.

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:01 am**

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Thu Jul 08, 2021 10:20 am I wouldn't exactly call it big and broad - probably not something an actual symphony player would use - but it's really good for what it is, a depth between a 6-1/2 and a 5GS. It would be great for Bolero.

Doug, read by latest PM. I want to wait till I can talk to you. Too many variables for my wee brain.

Posted: **Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:57 am**

For broad orchestral sound, I do fall back to my G, but if I'm sitting first, I'll probably still use the "E" cup. I typically don't play orchestral music though, and for everything else classical (quartets/quintets, etc.) the "E" works great for me.

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