Yamaha shank

[bubblelord]

I've recently been playing a Doug Yeo piece on my edwards bass and like it. I noticed mouthpieces sit deeper in yamaha recievers. Has anyone ever had a yamaha mouthpiece shaved down to insert to the depth it was designed to for a non yamaha bass?

[Burgerbob]

I don't think the mouthpieces are different, just the receivers.

[harrisonreed]

Yamaha basses have very unusual leadpipe receiver tapers. I actually put tape on the mouthpiece so it doesn't go in that far. It isn't the mouthpiece

[bubblelord]

Oh that makes sense, thanks.

[MTbassbone]

Yamaha basses have very unusual leadpipe receiver tapers. I actually put tape on the mouthpiece so it doesn't go in that far. It isn't the mouthpiece

How much tape and what kind of tape?

[harrisonreed]

Yamaha basses have very unusual leadpipe receiver tapers. I actually put tape on the mouthpiece so it doesn't go in that far. It isn't the mouthpiece

How much tape and what kind of tape?

Teflon tape, not a lot. Just enough so it goes in just one inch, rather than all the way to the start of the shank.

[MTbassbone]

How much tape and what kind of tape?

Teflon tape, not a lot. Just enough so it goes in just one inch, rather than all the way to the start of the shank.

Did you notice any difference in how it plays? better or worse?

[harrisonreed]

Teflon tape, not a lot. Just enough so it goes in just one inch, rather than all the way to the start of the shank.

Did you notice any difference in how it plays? better or worse?

Significantly better. The Yamaha Xeno bass is a strange beast. I needed to reseat the mouthpiece, as described above (tuning side goes in a bit to compensate, magically plays better), and do some treatments to the bell and it started to speak and project a bit more naturally. Out of the box, it has no compression and it's not a fun trombone to play. Not a horn that you let "do the work".

[MTbassbone]

Did you notice any difference in how it plays? better or worse?

Significantly better. The Yamaha Xeno bass is a strange beast. I needed to reseat the mouthpiece, as described above (tuning side goes in a bit to compensate, magically plays better), and do some treatments to the bell and it started to speak and project a bit more naturally. Out of the box, it has no compression and it's not a fun trombone to play. Not a horn that you let "do the work".

I'll have to check it out. What do you mean about "treatments to the bell"? Cryogenics? FWIW, I really like mine. I am curious about the depth the mouthpiece issue though. Mine has a gold brass bell.

[harrisonreed]

Significantly better. The Yamaha Xeno bass is a strange beast. I needed to reseat the mouthpiece, as described above (tuning side goes in a bit to compensate, magically plays better), and do some treatments to the bell and it started to speak and project a bit more naturally. Out of the box, it has no compression and it's not a fun trombone to play. Not a horn that you let "do the work".

I'll have to check it out. What do you mean about "treatments to the bell"? Cryogenics? FWIW, I really like mine. I am curious about the depth the mouthpiece issue though. Mine has a gold brass bell.

No, nothing like that lol. Much more low tech, dampening the bell in certain spots so that energy isn't lost, and the compression and sound are more "up front". Some people love the open feel of horns, and I think that the Yammy Xeno is an end point on that quest. I just want to blow in, feel the horn push back, and get easy sound out. That doesn't happen for me on the Yamaha. Then again, I feel like Thayer horns have the best compression and best resistance of all, so I might just be crazy.

[tbonesullivan]

The Deeper insertion depth seems to be specific to the newer model Yamaha Basses that have the more typical multi-piece cork barrels (they could be single piece). The YBL-612, 620, etc are not like that. The YBL-830 uses the same leadpipe as the YBL-613H (D2530700 - M'PIPE ASS'Y YBL813UG ), so it has that deeper insertion. I think it's about 3-4mm more.

I would just use your mouthpiece as is. I don't know why the insertion depth is different, but I haven't noticed any intonation or other issues with the YBL-613H I have.

[hornbuilder]

The insertion depth of the mouthpiece is irrelevant.

What matters is what happens "after" the end of the mouthpiece.

To prove that point to myself, I made 2 leadpipes, with thebonly difference between them being one covered more of the shank, by .150". The added length was only on the top of the receiver, everything else from the end of the mouthpiece to the end of the pipe were the same. The 2 pipes played exactly the same.

Yamaha developed the 613H with Murray Crewe. Who knows what mouthpiece he used? Did he have some predilection for a certain insertion depth which he felt gave a better result? We will probably never know.

But the insertion depth on the mouthpiece shank is really small potatoes compared to everything that comes after the end of the mouthpiece shank as to what a horn plays the way it does.

[JoeStanko]

.

[ithinknot]

There's an interesting design story behind the 613H's unique leadpipe.

... which is?


In any case, as Matthew says, the design decision here is the distance between the end of a normal mouthpiece shank and the venturi (and everything beyond). Once that's been established, you can cut off the top of the receiver taper wherever you want - in which case, it might as well be in the normal 1" depth position so as not to confuse people.

[hornbuilder]

Joe.
Thanks for the correction. Duly noted.

The other issue comes in when you consider the number of mouthpiece and instrument/leadpipe makers there are. Yes, the receiver taper generally has a specific dimension, but there is invariably some variance in how individual pieces are made.

Who knows, it may have been one such anomalous variant that was chosen to be the "norm", for whatever reason, which leaves us years later to discuss why things are the way they are. All speculation of course...

Would be interested to hear the story if the 613 pipe!!

[BGuttman]

The mouthpiece goes in deeper on my King 7B also. Doug made a special shank so that it only goes in 1 inch, but I found the standard shank (inserted about 1 1/8") worked better on my King 7B.

[hornbuilder]

The mouthpiece goes in deeper on my King 7B also. Doug made a special shank so that it only goes in 1 inch, but I found the standard shank (inserted about 1 1/8") worked better on my King 7B.

As I said, the insertion depth is irrelevant. It's what happens from the end of the mouthpiece on that matters.

[tbonesullivan]

The mouthpiece goes in deeper on my King 7B also. Doug made a special shank so that it only goes in 1 inch, but I found the standard shank (inserted about 1 1/8") worked better on my King 7B.

I believe the Duo Gravis also is that way. Every one I tried over the years had my Faxx 1 1/2G insert more. Never noticed any intonation issues at all. All played great. I think that horn was designed around the 1 1/2G as well.

I wonder if they just kept the same leadpipe for the 7B. No way to really tell.

With Yamaha, they have a giant parts catalog online, so it's easy to see which horns share the same leadpipes.

Of course, now I'm also curious about the 613H leadpipe story, as well as what a Yamaha YBL-813UG is.

[Jbeckett]

These pipes, and I play an 830, do limit which pieces can be played in the horn. My Greg Black pieces go all the way in up to the deco part of the stem, my Dunkel does as well, I could never get a Taylor O to seat at all. Doug’s pieces work well with my Yamahas, and I’ve been an 882OR for tenor and and 830 bass, for a long time. Even considered using a Bach slide with a nickel crook to compare.

[harrisonreed]

The mouthpiece goes in deeper on my King 7B also. Doug made a special shank so that it only goes in 1 inch, but I found the standard shank (inserted about 1 1/8") worked better on my King 7B.

As I said, the insertion depth is irrelevant. It's what happens from the end of the mouthpiece on that matters.

I'd contest this. The 36H alto handles very differently depending on what the tip diameter is of the mouthpiece you are using. The dang 15CL, which goes in farther than most mouthpieces but is also quite long, handles a lot better than most other alto mouthpieces. Likewise, Doug Elliott Alto S shanks go in farther as well, and change the way the horn handles, though near as I can tell they don't add length to make up for it.

Likewise, the Yamaha basses with the oversized leadpipe tapers play better if you build the mouthpiece shank up a bit with Teflon tape, so they don't go as far in.

Trumpet players are crazy, but the good ones obsess over "the gap".

[musicofnote]

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[musicofnote]

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