TromboneChat

Hello!

I am a band director and I wanted to have some demo mouthpieces for my students thinking about upgrading from their stock mouthpieces. I have a good idea for large bore mouthpieces and euphonium mouthpieces, but I am not sure about jazz/lead mouthpieces. Do you all have any suggestions for two or three of your go to/ standards? I’ll take suggestions for jazz and concert if you have em’!

Thank you!

I will start the storm. There is probably going to be a barrage. I had a conversation on mouthpieces with Al Kay who is one of the design consultants for the Yamaha YSL-697z and YSL-897z trombones, which are very good, very cheap, and very available, usually. He recommended the Bach 11C. He also said many player’s unique mouthpieces were variations on the Bach 11C, as is his signature mouthpiece. Mr. Kay also said the Schilke 47 is a very good mouthpiece as well for use with the YSL-897.

Frank Crisafulli used to make all of his students play Schilke 47 mouthpieces until the student could play high e. It is versatile and at one time was used by professionals playing large bore instruments. The Schilke 47 is available in small and large shank. It will drive Conn 88H and Bach 42 trombones just fine.

Bach makes a 7C mouthpiece that is close to a 11C. It will suffice a well. FAXX makes a good copy of the 7C that is very affordable and of high quality.

For those playing jazz band 3rd parts on small shank (small or .525" bore) trombones, and for concert band, you might consider some larger-but-not-too-deep pieces like:

Bach 6½A and 6½AL, 5 and 5GS, maybe a 4C or 4 for stronger players, and the no letter pieces for smaller sizes are deeper than the equivalent C cups for a little extra lip room;

Schilke 50 or Yamaha 48, also 51B, and maybe 51C4, which is a bit shallower than the normal 51 and a good choice for concert band;

Wick 6, 5 or 4BS for your flat-rim lovers.

3rd bone, depending on what's arranged, can be tricky: the part could have a range from E below the staff (sometimes lower!) right up to high C with the lead player. Finding the right piece to give them that flexibility can be a challenge, something I'm going through myself TBH.

And maybe your lead player will appreciate the larger pieces if smaller sizes don't work so well for them.

I'll defer to others for the lead and solo chairs.

Just for clarification, when Mr. Crisafulli started teaching you, your first assignment was to acquire a Schilke 47 mouthpiece. He was a contemporary of Bud Herseth and Ed Kleinhammer in the Chicago Symphony. The Bach 7C can be heard on YouTube as played by Keith Hilson on small bore trombones at Schmitt Music.

Bach 11C
Yamaha Nils Landgren
Josef Klier 6E and 8E

would give a nice variety and maybe not pieces every local store would have available to try so may open some eyes to the alternatives. I’d say none are bargain basement options but they’re also far from the boutique options.

If I were collecting mpcs for high school age students, I’d start with a Bach 11C, 7C, and a 6 and 1/2AL and a large shank 6 and 1/2AL and a 5G. I’d keep my eye on the classifieds and buy used.

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:27 pm Just for clarification, when Mr. Crisafulli started teaching you, your first assignment was to acquire a Schilke 47 mouthpiece. He was a contemporary of Bud Herseth and Ed Kleinhammer in the Chicago Symphony. The Bach 7C can be heard on YouTube as played by Keith Hilson on small bore trombones at Schmitt Music.

I'd tell him to get stuffed. A good teacher would realise not everyone is suited to the same mouthpiece.

Pezza wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 8:33 pm

OneTon wrote: ↑Sat Apr 30, 2022 2:27 pm Just for clarification, when Mr. Crisafulli started teaching you, your first assignment was to acquire a Schilke 47 mouthpiece. He was a contemporary of Bud Herseth and Ed Kleinhammer in the Chicago Symphony. The Bach 7C can be heard on YouTube as played by Keith Hilson on small bore trombones at Schmitt Music.

I'd tell him to get stuffed. A good teacher would realise not everyone is suited to the same mouthpiece.

There was a time when a teacher would insist you play a particular mouthpiece and a particular trombone, whether it worked for you or not. In fact, there still are such teachers today. It's even worse when the teacher hasn't a clue. Like the trumpet teacher who thought a 1C was a great trumpet mouthpiece, so for a trombone you need a 1G

Luckily none of my teachers tried that on me. Only 1 MD has tried, and it was with a band I was asked to help! I told him to get stuffed & find someone else.

Maybe the best thing to get is a full set of Doug Elliott small bore pieces. Then you don't have to mess around.

I think the OP wants to have a "loaner kit" for kids to try of things that they can later buy without having to take out a student loan. Doiug has great stuff, but it's a bit beyond the pocketbook of most High Schoolers.

I would start with a collection of Faxx and Kelly (plastic) mouthpieces. They cover most common sizes and are generally inexpensive. Keep a collection of small and large shank 5G, 6.5 AL, 7C, 12C (small shank only), 1.5 G (large shank only; if there is a large bore with F or bass). Next might be a collection of Yamaha or Schilke 45, 47, 48/50, 51, 52, 57, 58.

How many are you buying and what is your budget? You called them stock mouthpieces, are they going to be supplied with school horns, or used as demos?

Schilke 47 is a popular choice, as is the Denis Wick 7cs. I prefer the Marcinkiewicz 8H myself.

I’m amused by the thought of a collection of DE mpcs in a school setting. Various rims, cups, shanks—the collection would likely remain intact for, oh, 20 minutes.

If that.

I would keep it all Bachs, so as not to confuse the issue.

Small bore:
Bach 12C (b/c for a scant few - it works)
Bach 7C
Bach 6 1/2 AL (a standard in some programs)
Bach 5
Bach 5G (b/c for a few - it works)

Large bore:
Bach 6 1/2 AL
Bach 5G
Bach 4G

99% will be able to find one or another of the above that will work pretty good - until such time as they get advanced instruction, and then the real fun can start. Just MHO...

Bach5G wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 7:49 am I’m amused by the thought of a collection of DE mpcs in a school setting. Various rims, cups, shanks—the collection would likely remain intact for, oh, 20 minutes.

So, the OP says it's for students looking to buy an upgrade and test stuff out. You don't need to loan out mouthpieces to do that, and not every student would fit the bill. You give the student 30 minutes of your time in a lesson and let them try a few things. I would have benefitted from this as a high school junior or senior. It doesn't take that long to discover obvious improvements, and then tell the student to hand it back.

And you don't need to have 6.5ALs and 12Cs for students "looking to upgrade" -- at least when I was in high school, everyone in the section was getting lessons and was on a 6.5al or something similar. We had access to all the Bach models listed in this thread already and kids either fell into the "I could care less" camp or "cool, guess there isn't really a better option than the 6.5AL" camp. Maybe my band experience was atypical.

I dunno, at the end of the day, you can have the most random collection of mouthpieces ever, and if you loan them out to kids you'll never see them again whether they are modular or not. And, even if the kids do give them back, if the random collection is not a logical system then it really is just random -- the kids aren't going to really learn or know why something works better if it's just a lending closet. If the teacher or band director is guiding them through there are teaching points.

In the trumpet world, makers will show up to schools or festivals with screw rim sets similar to the DE system and it seems to work well.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Sun May 01, 2022 2:33 pm I dunno, at the end of the day, you can have the most random collection of mouthpieces ever, and if you loan them out to kids you'll never see them again whether they are modular or not. And, even if the kids do give them back, if the random collection is not a logical system then it really is just random -- the kids aren't going to really learn or know why something works better if it's just a lending closet. If the teacher or band director is guiding them through there are teaching points.

So these are really valid points Harrison brings up that I think people are kind of missing. Indeed the original question is a bit of a landmine because it doesn't begin to scratch the surface of all the different variables that go into what makes a mouthpiece fit for someone.

That being said there are like 30 different shanks, cups and rims in the Elliott ST series. At $70-$90 a pop, buying the whole catalogue is going to be cost prohibitive for most public school band programs.

Yeah it would have to be like, B thru F cups, and one small bore shank per cup, probably the "3" shank for each letter. Maybe the larger .525 shank for the E and F cups instead of the "3". But just one shank per.

Then one each 100-104 rim

Not completely out of the realm of a school paying for it, even if you can only get two complete mouthpieces a year.

I know it's slightly off topic, but this is something college programs might look at too. If I was running a studio, I'd have a case with something like this:

Rims:

XT100-XT104, XT105N, XT106N

Cups / Shanks
XT B, B3 and B Alto
XT C+, D3
XT D (D3)
XT F, F8
XT G, G8

Maybe a few bass pieces, but I think the bigger focus would be on small and large tenor. Bass rims usually make sense, whereas tenor and small bore rims often do not. If a student wanted to compilation out blame their mouthpiece, it would be great to be able to throw on a few different rims to a cup that is similar to what they are already playing and let them try it. They could try whatever the heck combo they wanted in my studio, but I wouldn't lend anything out. Then after taking about what's going on, it gets washed, spritzed, and goes back in the case. Again, probably not out of the realm of possibility for a college program.

That much variety would be absurd.

If anybody wanted a small but good useable selection for unknown students with unknown small bore horns I would give them LT 100, 101, and 102 rims, a D cup, with D2 and D3 shanks.

Those would be completely useable by 99% of students on .500 bore and smaller, and .508 bore, and even acceptable on a .525 bore. Almost nobody really needs smaller than 100, even as beginners. An LT 100D2 is far easier to play than a 6.5AL.

Thank you all so much for your replies! I thought I would get a huge wave of opinions, but I found some consistencies in the various opinions. I probably wont be able to order DE pieces (sorry Doug) because the pieces need to be below $100 if I'm going to have a chaance at getting High Schoolers to order one for themselves.

I would suggest to further consider the Yamaha line.
Quality is great and they have the most common small shank alternatives available, including the Nils Landgren signature.
From my knowledge prices are pretty reasonable.

Of course I would like to recommend our MST STUDIO mouthpieces, but maybe not for this purpose

Denis Wick in the 2nd edition of his book "Trombone Technique" (2005) offers three mouthpieces for beginners: DW 9BS (similar to Schilke 47 by the way), DW 6BS (similar to Bach 6 1/2AL) and Bach 6 1/2 AL.
For jazz/lead, he offers the DW 12CS, DW 10CS, DW 7CS, as well as the Bach 12C and 11C.