TromboneChat

Has anyone here checked out the Shires Marshall Gilkes piece? Thoughts?

Someone was posting that his new MG piece has caused him to sell all of his other mpcs.

Have as look at:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=181070#p181070

Near the bottom, Model34 posts.

Yes me, one came with my Shires MG trombone.
It's a fantastic 6.5AL type piece and an upgrade on his original Griego 6.5
Very comfortable and easy all across the range.
I'm mainly using my Bach Mt.Vernon 7 on it but would use the MG as a semi-legit mpc on a .500 or .508 bore.
I find it too large and too much of a tubby sound for lead or pop/salsa type work.
Hope this helps!

Fidbone wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:18 pm my Shires MG trombone

ooh, gizza review

The horn was fine tuned by a wizard of trombone. The mouthpiece was fine tuned by the wizard to get every last thing there is to get out of that horn. As evidenced by his playing, he was wildly successful! I find it fits me perfectly with my MG horn. I find my Custom 897Z produces a thinner tone than the MG with this piece. I also find the Z likes a Schilke 51 piece better; a good combo for concert band.

My previous post:
https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php?p=181070#p181070

ithinknot wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:29 pm

Fidbone wrote: ↑Sun Jun 26, 2022 3:18 pm my Shires MG trombone

ooh, gizza review

It's phenomenal and that's all I'm saying as I want to get ahead of the game

Hey. I received this with my Gilkes Shires trombone last week. It is really great. However it is deep for a 6 1/2 size. I would like to use it as my ‘everything’ mouthpiece but I did a pop horn section thing in the weekend and it doesn’t quite have the sizzle for that, and I lose a bit of range.

But literally everything else is fantastic on it. Incredibly rich sound and notes pop out of it. And of course great pedals!

Would anyone know if other Shires mouthpieces have a similar rim shape to the Gilkes? What I would love is a Gilkes ‘lead’ mouthpiece I could put in for work that requires zingy upper register.

Hi Ben,
I'm going through the same dilemma as you.
The Gilkes mpc is fantastic!
I've actually forced myself to play it despite the same findings with "Zingyness"
All I'll say is stick with it, it gets better the more you play it.
I've also tried my Bach MV 7 but find the throat too tight in the lower register.
I've also played my DE100/D/D2 on it which works great but doesn't have the same quality of sound as the Shires Gilkes.
I've used it on a couple of heavy Pop/Soul/Funk gigs and have had no issues, if anything I felt really fresh by the end of the gig as the mpc doesn't seem to bite back.
The more I play it the better it gets, in fact my range feels more open and solid now!
There is a Shires MD+ mpc that might tempt you, I've not tried it so can't pass comment but I believe it's a bit more 7C ish.
Good luck and let us know how you get on.
Cheers,
Chris.

I second Chris on his assessment as I’ve had the same results. Stick with it and give it some more time!

Actually have a salsa session this morning, will see how it records. I had the idea of just sticking with it too… I must admit though that a punchy high D has pretty much gone

I reached out to Shires re a similar mouthpiece, they said to look at the charts. Can anyone help with what [email protected] and OD are? Would love to identify a Gilkes rim with a slightly shallower cup? Options from Shires are probably Davis +, 6 1/2AL or even the 5GS?

And there's always the nagging doubt that Marshall seems to have absolutely no problems playing in the upper register on this thing...

Aren’t those made by Pickett? They might be able to get you something more exact

Have a look here OD = Outside diameter - ID = Inside diameter .......... https://www.seshires.com/mouthpieces/measurements

Or here ........... https://www.pickettblackburn.com/signat ... -1326.html

That Dan Levine model looks interesting!

However you say you've only had the Gilkes for a week, that's certainly not enough time to learn to play it

I'd say give it at least 3 months exclusively!

Having said all of the above and thinking about your plight, I plugged my Rath S6.5 into my Shires bone yesterday as I've not blown on it for a couple of years and..... Wow, the thing definitely has the Zing in spades! I didn't expect that. Similar...ish rim, perhaps with a little more bite and not as deep. Hmmm

The Shires MG still has THE sound though, gotta be worth sticking with...... If it's good enough for Gilkes then it's good enough etc etc

I don't like the sound people get in ensemble on that size mouthpiece on an upper trombone part. As a soloist, fine, but not on 1st or 2nd in the big band section. Your taste may be different, but the very best jazz bone players of all time generally played on smaller mouthpieces.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 8:40 am Your taste may be different, but the very best jazz bone players of all time generally played on smaller mouthpieces.

Wow

Are you talking older and deceased Jazz players or players living and playing today?

I think when we’re talking about the Marshall Gilkes signature mouthpiece it’s ok to say that some “very best jazz players” sound pretty good on that size! Like possibly Marshall…

That said, I agree to an extent. I’m loving the Gilkes but there are some situations I’ve played in where the sound is not idiomatic to that style; pop horn section, Latin etc.

I reached out to Shires about options for a ‘Lead’ Gilkes mouthpiece, they said look at the size chart. I also got in touch with Pickett, they said talk to Shires! So I think I’m going to stick with the Gilkes mouthpiece and use my old mouthpiece if the job requires a more lead sound.

Still curious if one of the other Shires might work well though. Looking at the specs maybe even the Shires 11c looks similar in terms of rim size and a v-c cup bit with a shallower cup and backbore?

Bleek wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm Still curious if one of the other Shires might work well though. Looking at the specs maybe even the Shires 11c looks similar in terms of rim size and a v-c cup bit with a shallower cup and backbore?

The Shires 11c is a comfy piece, more like a 6 3/4 size, easy to play but very bright, too bright for my MD+ it came with, and less thick core to the sound than I wanted. But maybe on the Gilkes it would be a better fit? The MD+ horn is pretty LW already.

I would also look at either MD or MD+ mouthpieces, or some of those Pickett pieces look really interesting.

I play Pickett, and I’d totally recommend trying some of their stuff. I use one of the “lead” pieces on my alto, and they’re great.

brtnats wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:52 pm I play Pickett, and I’d totally recommend trying some of their stuff. I use one of the “lead” pieces on my alto, and they’re great.

What are their rim contours like, or does it change model to model?

Bleek wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm I think when we’re talking about the Marshall Gilkes signature mouthpiece it’s ok to say that some “very Looking at the specs maybe even the Shires 11c looks similar in terms of rim size and a v-c cup bit with a shallower cup and backbore?

I didn't like the sound I got with the 11C on my Shires MG, a normal Bach 11C sounded better. Only tried it for a short while in the shop though!
The thing about the MG mpc is how comfortable the rim is.
You could have a screw rim of it made by Pickett then you could experiment with cups!

The thing I've also found I really love about the MG is how easy it is to play and get a great sound.
It's easy to manipulate that sound too. I was playing lead in a Kenton type band and the guy on 2nd didn't notice I was playing a larger mpc than usual.
In Marshall's own words "It's like having 3 mouthpieces in one"
When I've tried switching back to smaller pieces I find I get fatigued more quickly!!!

Rusty wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 7:05 pm

brtnats wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:52 pm I play Pickett, and I’d totally recommend trying some of their stuff. I use one of the “lead” pieces on my alto, and they’re great.

What are their rim contours like, or does it change model to model?

They’re screw rim, so you get to choose. They’ve got one that’s flatter with the contact points closer to the cup and one that’s rounder with the contact point closer to the middle of the rim.

brtnats wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:52 pm I play Pickett, and I’d totally recommend trying some of their stuff. I use one of the “lead” pieces on my alto, and they’re great.

I had a look on their website but they don’t give much information on the cups sizes and rim widths. What piece are you playing on alto?….

I had a look on their website but they don’t give much information on the cups sizes and rim widths. What piece are you playing on alto?….

I live near them so I’ve tried lots of their combinations. I play a 7L cup/7C rim or a 7S cup on alto, and I play Pickett on all my horns. The numbers on their website are not incredibly helpful, as I think the measurements tend to run large. I *love* them though; they feel great, sound good, and give you some modularity without too much complexity.

Rusty wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:08 pm

Bleek wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 2:22 pm Still curious if one of the other Shires might work well though. Looking at the specs maybe even the Shires 11c looks similar in terms of rim size and a v-c cup bit with a shallower cup and backbore?

The Shires 11c is a comfy piece, more like a 6 3/4 size, easy to play but very bright, too bright for my MD+ it came with, and less thick core to the sound than I wanted. But maybe on the Gilkes it would be a better fit? The MD+ horn is pretty LW already.

This is why I was a bit disappointed that Shires and Pickett weren’t more helpful in trying to identify something in their line that feels a bit like the Gilkes but a bit shallower. Specs online, especially on mouthpieces can be really deceptive.
I was hoping to get more of an opinion from possibly someone at Shires who had played the small bore options and had a working opinion.

It may have been the format you used. Some mouthpiece manufacturers are notorious about their communication methods.. some do better with email, others phone, social media, etc. I can't speak to either personally as I've not really had any meaningful interaction with either company other than about 10 years ago to order a few smaller parts from Shires.

I second the advice for screw rim stuff though. It's really hard to beat having exactly the rim you want and then working on getting a working underpart.

With regard to which players I made reference to about mouthpiece sizing, here is a list of a few (most are gone now):
GONE:
Urbie Green
Carl Fontana
Frank Rosolino
Bill Watrous
Phil Harris
Jack Teagarden
Tommy Dorsey
Chauncy Welsh
Carlie Loper
Kai Winding

Living:
Phil Wilson
Jiggs Whigham
Mark Nightingale
Bob McChesney

I think I have a good point. While today's players are fine, I find them pale in comparison to these guys. That's only my opinion, and you are entitled to you your own opinion.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 12:41 pm While today's players are fine, I find them pale in comparison to these guys.

yikes… you could’ve just left that last part out and had a solid argument

The vast majority of those players you list are not famous for their section playing, but as soloists, which goes against your previous point.

A lot of contemporary players still play similar sizes. From that list, Mark Nightingale has an S11 which is a .97" with a .232 throat. Jiggs's signature piece is like a .96" rim. Bob McChesney apparently plays an 11C rim with a 7C cup. Conrad Herwig is also on something smallish, like an 11C iirc. But then you have players like the late Slide Hampton who played on something much larger. I'm just not sure measuring players by their age is the best way of drawing any meaningful distinction. Nor do we really know the contrafactual if we could materialize JJ Johnson or something to an ITF in 2022 and had him pick out the piece he liked best would be a King 29.

Hook, line and sinker

Mega difficult to make a living out of being a soloist nowadays!

Most trombonists today that are making a living from playing are usually using multiple mouthpieces due to having to play multiple styles and positions. Myself included.

A 6.5 or 6.75 makes the transition a tad easier for me

Well, sorry you don’t like my opinions. All the people I mentioned did play in sections and most of them As lead players. I’m certainly not making ageist remarks. I’m being honest about what I hear and what I take away from it. You are entitled to the same consideration including about the people I mentioned.

Slyde Hampton didn’t play the large equipment he used at the end of his life when he played on Maynard’s Birdland band by the way.

if that size works for you great! I won’t try to dissuade anyone from playing what works for them. But i don’t have to like your sound. You and the people that (hopefully) hire you do.

I do use multiple mouthpieces and different horns. That’s ok too! But the Gilke piece is one I won’t be
Spending my $$ on.

What sound is appropriate for the lead trombonist in a big band? It really still can depend on the band! You might have, on the one hand, the ‘Big Phat Band,’ or on the other, ‘The Lincoln Center Jazz Orchestra’ So, what mouthpiece is going to *tend* towards the respective sounds? Obviously, it ain’t just the mouthpiece, but I tend to think Gilkes himself could move easily between either kind of band.

Sound concept first and foremost is created in your head and by the players you listen to and are influenced by. Choice of equipment is what helps achieve it. One shoe size doesn't fit all!

Bear in mind that the Shires Gilkes trombone is a .500 bore horn and that the mouthpiece was built to perfectly match that horn.

I have played with a number of guys on .500 bore horns and 6.5 Al size mouthpieces. None of them had what i or the band leader would Describe as a lead players sound. Not that it was a bad sound, it just didn’t fit the band leaders concept of the sound. The band leader also has to be happy with the sound you get. I’m sure MG could play lead in a big band but would every leader be happy with his sound! Who knows. As far as the piece being built to “perfectly match” that horn…I would have thought it was made
To make MG happy and coincidentally fit that horn.

I'm not sure there is a meaningful distinction between appeasing the artist for whom a "signature" is created and making it work well for the "signature" instrument they will be putting it in. And I don't think anybody has a problem with the opinion that someone prefers some group of artists over the other, it's the negative impression that one group "pales in comparison" to another group, particularly when we're talking about the field of artistry rather than something where you can objectively quantify such as in long-distance running.

Particularly when the implication is that contemporary players use larger equipment and by extension large equipment makes them inferior artists. It's neither true that contemporary artists universally use larger equipment than those on your list, nor is it true that it makes them inferior as artists even if they did. In particular, I can think of one extreme outlier who is essentially the reason I stuck with music at all when I was in grade school - Matt Niess, who was the lead chair in the Army Blues who recently retired. The equipment he plays on makes JJ Johnson's equipment look positively monstrous. When I was studying with him, he was on something with a .468 bore with a mouthpiece that was like a 15C or something.

I prefer stuff from the bebop era, personally, but that doesn't mean I think that someone like Steve Davis is an inadequate artist or that there is any meaningful comparison between him and Frank Rosolino beyond the purely subjective. It means nothing more than I, personally, really like Frank Rosolino. Both of them are/were fabulous artists and neither "pale in comparison" to one another. Same with comparisons to Stan Kenton's vs. Count Basie's tromone section playing. Things can be different without suggesting that one is inferior.

Ultimately this thread is about the new Gilkes mouthpiece ssKing2b has turned it into a mud slinging thread. Shame on him!

So let's not get into how much he loves his XO "Fedchock" model trombone!
I have one BTW and it's for sale as it's not got as versatile sound as my Shires MG. No matter what mouthpiece you put in it.

Also, most big band bandleaders don't really give a sh1t what equipment you are playing as long as you are doing the job really well.

Anyway I digress, the MG is a great all-round mouthpiece but I wouldn't use it on lead in an older style big band. However I would use my Rath S6.5 as it plays like an 11C but without the size restrictions I find playing an 11C. If I were to play lead on my XO "Fedchock" model trombone with an 11C mouthpiece then I'd have a really hard time simply because it feels uncomfortable for me and I find the Shires MG + Rath S6.5 much easier to get the required results. ....... YMMV

Good day........

The thing about Artist model equipment is that it is customized for use by that artist. If you buy that equipment will you suddenly sound like that artist? No. Unless you happen to have the exact same physiognomy and playing techniques. Is it possible it will make you play better? Maybe.

If you find the Gilkes pieces to work for you, great. If not, that's OK -- there are lots of other mouthpieces out there. Just like shoes. Find one that fits, and wear it.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 7:17 am
If you find the Gilkes pieces to work for you, great. If not, that's OK -- there are lots of other mouthpieces out there. Just like shoes. Find one that fits, and wear it.

^^^This^^^

Also before poo pooing any equipment make sure you've tried the equipment you are poo pooing

I had no idea I would be hurting delicate feelings by expressing my opinions. I had no intention of turning this into a mudslinging event my intention was to say that I have not been satisfied with the sound I have heard from people using the MG piece. I’m also sorry you don’t like my choice of words to use paled in comparison. Again my opinion, and I am entitled to it. You don’t think big band leaders give a shit as you said, I’ve got news for you, if they don’t like what they hear they won’t hire you again.

I’m really sorry if anyone took anything I said as a terrible pejorative but I’m just telling you my perspective. If you can play a bath tub and make it sound right, more power to you. I didn’t launch Into a snit about about anybody’s horn brands, either. It’s the same time, I don’t care what you play if it works for you and for the people that hire you.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 9:55 am I had no idea I would be hurting delicate feelings by expressing my opinions. Again my opinion, and I am entitled to it.

And so are we pal

P.S. Never had any complaints from band leaders or colleagues so must be doing something right

Not impinging upon your opinion at all. Good luck with everything you do. I’m glad you didn’t have any complaints from Band Leader‘s - neither have I in a 50 year career.

ssking2b wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 11:08 am Not impinging upon your opinion at all. Good luck with everything you do. I’m glad you didn’t have any complaints from Band Leader‘s - neither have I in a 50 year career.

Just shy of you mate at almost 40 year career, mind you I'm in Europe so you're probably not bothered

I have toured Europe with a few of your more well know countrymen though but I shan't brag

Enjoy your evening

What was Slide Hampton playing in his Maynard days?

Bach5G wrote: ↑Wed Aug 24, 2022 12:40 pm What was Slide Hampton playing in his Maynard days?

He played a Getzen Super Deluxe for at least part (if not all) of his time with Maynard.

I played a Bach 6 1/2AL for years on my King 3b when I still played in local jazz groups. I switched to a 6 3/4C, and honestly didn't really notice any difference in sound, but that could be due to the leadpipe of the 3B.

I'm not sure why the MG is considered so "huge" for jazz, especially if he's mostly a solo player. With a .500 bore horn getting some edge shouldn't be a problem.

Bleek wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:39 pm

Rusty wrote: ↑Fri Aug 19, 2022 4:08 pm

The Shires 11c is a comfy piece, more like a 6 3/4 size, easy to play but very bright, too bright for my MD+ it came with, and less thick core to the sound than I wanted. But maybe on the Gilkes it would be a better fit? The MD+ horn is pretty LW already.

This is why I was a bit disappointed that Shires and Pickett weren’t more helpful in trying to identify something in their line that feels a bit like the Gilkes but a bit shallower. Specs online, especially on mouthpieces can be really deceptive.
I was hoping to get more of an opinion from possibly someone at Shires who had played the small bore options and had a working opinion.

I may be able to help.

JKBone85 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 26, 2022 12:39 pm

I may be able to help.

OK fire away, I think a few may be interested in what you suggest.

So I’ve played a bunch of situations with the the Gilkes mouthpiece in the last few weeks, some Latin recording, Mingus style band, rockabilly album recording, funky jazz gig. It’s also beautiful mouthpiece in a small practice room, the transitions are so smooth, the articulations and the sound are really warm but with ring to it.

I’m rediscovering my range on it, it records great and is punchier than you think it’s sounding from a playing perspective. I love it. But I would still say it doesn’t quite have an idiomatic sound for a pop horn section or playing lead in a standard repertoire big band. And at this stage would still feel nervous about rocking about to an unknown session or gig with only this. Most every gig I’ve done I’ve had my old mouthpiece in my pocket, which is a first for me. Today is a Neil Diamond Hot August Night show on lead, pretty certain it won’t cut through on that.

I want a Gilkes Lead version in my case too

It might help if you say what your old mouthpiece is?

Fidbone wrote: ↑Sun Aug 28, 2022 2:24 am It might help if you say what your old mouthpiece is?

Doug Elliott LT101 C+ D
But in the last year started using AR Resonance 25.7 60 43 10.5 backbore