TromboneChat

I recently picked up a Hammond 12ML for a good price and figured I’d try and and just sell if for the same if I didn’t care for it. A like a lot about it, but the longer shank isn’t my favorite thing physically. I know Schilke and some ultimate brass mouthpieces also have longer shanks as well, but I’m wondering why? The Bach length mouthpieces I have feel a lot better ergonomically. Maybe that’s due to just being my norm, but maybe not.

My mouthpiece is a bit longer than most standard mouthpieces. I dunno, I like it. I'll take anything that lets me get the bell section shorter overall.

They slot easier, but you loose some of the flexibility. It's a preference thing.

I have an old style (ca. 1979) Schilke 60 with a long shank and a new style Schilke 60 with a short(er) shank.

I don't like the short version because it puts the f-valve trigger in contact with my cheek, as do all other modern bass trombone mouthpieces I have tried.

The story I read about why the Schilke's had a longer shank claimed that it was meant as compromise between between differing mouthpiece receiver forms of two different makers... Bach and Reynolds?

I have no idea if that is true nor whether it applies also to Hammond

With the Schilkes, it was to fit Bachs and Conns. The old Conns slot better with the long shank because of a different taper in the receiver.

Jim Scott

Renold Schilke was obsessive compulsive about minimizing transition steps at the ends of the mouthpiece and leadpipe. If you would send him your instrument, he would match fit a Schilke mouthpiece to your leadpipe. I think he got more takers from trumpet players than trombone players. Though it can always be argued that everything makes a difference, it may make a more significant difference to trumpet response than trombone response.

Take a look at the shorter Schilke mouthpiece where it ends. The short Schilke tubing thickness probably compares to similarly sized Bach mouthpieces. The long Schilke mouthpiece is most probably knife edged where the mouthpiece ends. If you decide you don’t want to utilize a long Schilke mouthpiece to play trombone, they would make great gouges. I suspect we’re seeing the last of the severe taper being trimmed off the longer shank mouthpiece.

The shank stem of a mouthpiece being longer doesn't have to have any relation to the internal structure of the mouthpiece. Are you noticing that you get more insertion depth on the Hammond you have? I didn't really notice them to go in any farther, it's just that the outer shape they use has a more abrupt taper than a Bach.

Different backbore tapers work better with longer or shorter shanks. I don't really understand the details, but I know it experientially and from conversations with both Doug Elliott and Greg Black.

The long shank Schilkes make a huge difference on my Elkhart 8H. With a 51 or 51C4 long shank, the horn feels telepathic it is so easy to play.

I recently spent a month with a mouthpiece that would be the most popular choice around here. Remington shank. it sounded great. Playing it was an enormous struggle because the horn was so unstable. The day I gave up and switched back, my partner walked in and said "you sound really good today!" (She didn't know I had switched).

This is my first Remington horn. I never had these stability issues on other instruments with regular mouthpieces. I also haven't played anything but long shank Schilkes that are my normal-ish size. For example, I've got a Remington mouthpiece, but it is small for me. So, if other folks make long shanks, results might be different. Also, note that my 8H plays nothing like my currently listed for sale 88H. The valve makes the horn quite a bit tighter, so whatever the long shank does may not be needed.

The long shanks feel nice in my Edwards. But better than my old beloved Griego 4.5? I don't know. I had a long shank 58 for my standard shank bass for a bit. It was o.k. I guess. I shipped it to a new home yesterday and am enjoying a Mr. Bass. Short shank 59 on the way for a comparison.

Also, if they aren't working for you, try some different ones. I've got 3 51C4s now. One doesn't sound great. One doesn't feel great (inner rim too sharp). But, one is great! I've also got a second 51 and a long shank 52 on the way, so that will be interesting.

For me at least, there is something magical about an old long shank Schilke in the 8H. Like, so magical that I'm thinking of taking an audition just for "fun".

Paul

Gfunk wrote: ↑Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:05 pm some ultimate brass mouthpieces also have longer shanks as well, but I’m wondering why? .

It isn't just ergonomics.
The shape, length, and position of the mouthpiece backbore taper work in conjunction with the leadpipe taper to form the sound. To illustrate, warm up with your favorite mouthpiece in the horn. Then reinsert the same mouthpiece with one turn of masking tape wrapped around the shank. That should back the mouthpiece out by about 1/8", effectively (sort of) lengthening the shank of the mouthpiece. Play again and note the difference in sound/feel. The shank length is just one of variables that mouthpiece designers coordinate with the many other mouthpiece variables to create "their" mouthpiece performance.

Anyone try the mad bone pipe, it's the same theory behind a longer shank. ***Side Note*** This Long Iland Brass comp. Mouthpiece has long bronze shank. Seems to slot better than its shorter counterparts that I have. Seems to help focus the sound because of the extra cup room. Not a bad setup I have stumbled upon.

I actually lengthened the top, the shank is more or less typical length. But you nailed the reason why, It allows me to makes a better cup profile. This is only done on the bass trombone mouthpieces, no need on tenor.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:43 am I actually lengthened the top, the shank is more or less typical length. But you nailed the reason why, It allows me to makes a better cup profile. This is only done on the bass trombone mouthpieces, no need on tenor.

I never would have caught that. I'm still loving this mouthpiece.

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 5:10 am

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 3:43 am I actually lengthened the top, the shank is more or less typical length. But you nailed the reason why, It allows me to makes a better cup profile. This is only done on the bass trombone mouthpieces, no need on tenor.

I never would have caught that. I'm still loving this mouthpiece.

Great to hear!

The plot thickens, never had a tall cup before, Giggetty!

The three piece tuba mouthpieces from Houser, such as the Sellmansberger and Parker models, can be fit with delrin cup extenders to extend the cup up to 4mm. I seem to recall some other modular mouthpiece systems, mainly for tuba, which have this feature.

trombonedemon wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:42 am The plot thickens, never had a tall cup before, Giggetty!

Lol. There's a lot of "aha" moments that went into the design. I think i messaged you my cell on FB. Call anytime you want to nerd out!

I had a talk with the principle player for our section regarding using a Schilke mouthpiece to match his. I played 2nd at the time on an Edwards tenor with an axial flow valve. So I threw me 52D in the case for our next rehearsal. Before we started, we played some duets with me on my Wicks, then I switched to my Schilke 52D. He immediately asked if I could feel the difference because he heard the difference - it was more resonant he said. He played my horn using a Bach then his Schilke 51D. He said it "came alive" and that he could feel the vibrations. I thought it was a bit over done, but the more I played it, the more I could feel the vibrations in my hand.

This may sound a bit over the top but I am just speaking from experience. This is also why I prefer Doug Elliott bass mp's and a Schilke 60 on my bass horn.

Another reason for a long shank might be to change the insertion depth of the mouthpiece. You can increase the length, but make the termination diameter smaller. In this way, you could have a mouthpiece that goes farther into the leadpipe but still has the same effective length outside the trombone.

Depending on the backbore, this would change the shape formed between the mouthpiece throat and leadpipe venturi.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:49 pm Another reason for a long shank might be to change the insertion depth of the mouthpiece. You can increase the length, but make the termination diameter smaller. In this way, you could have a mouthpiece that goes farther into the leadpipe but still has the same effective length outside the trombone.

Depending on the backbore, this would change the shape formed between the mouthpiece throat and leadpipe venturi.

This would be a terrible idea. Without knowing the leadpipe your mouthpiece is going into for any given end user, fitment issues will be inevitable.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 2:05 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 4:49 pm Another reason for a long shank might be to change the insertion depth of the mouthpiece. You can increase the length, but make the termination diameter smaller. In this way, you could have a mouthpiece that goes farther into the leadpipe but still has the same effective length outside the trombone.

Depending on the backbore, this would change the shape formed between the mouthpiece throat and leadpipe venturi.

This would be a terrible idea. Without knowing the leadpipe your mouthpiece is going into for any given end user, fitment issues will be inevitable.

It could be that I didn't word what I was talking about the right way (I do it a lot ....), and maybe you thought I was talking about some weird concept that I didn't mean. But, this is a real thing mouthpiece makers do, and you don't have to take my word for it. I can think of a few mouthpieces in trombone land that do what I was trying to describe:

1. The 5CL mouthpiece inserts further than 1", because it's tip diameter is smaller than normal (taper rate is the same). I've adapted the design to a cup width I like -- it's a great mouthpiece.

2. The Doug Elliott alto S shank does the same thing -- it inserts further than the normal DE shank, on purpose. It makes specific trombone models play better.

3. The best brass line of mouthpieces varies shank length and tip diameter depending on the cup depth.

4. Bob Reeves, one of the best mouthpiece makers around, derives a ton of their business from the concept of the gap and shank insertion depth.

5. GR mouthpieces also creates adapters that effectively change the insertion depth of a standard mouthpiece to change how it plays.

It's a good idea, I think, but it can go south really fast. It's not just a random thing you do with a design.

I think the miscommunication is in how much additional insertion. I dont think you mean as far as to meet the venturi, which is how i took it.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Thu Sep 22, 2022 3:13 am I think the miscommunication is in how much additional insertion. I dont think you mean as far as to meet the venturi, which is how i took it.

Ohhhhh, nooooo. That would probably be terrible. At best the backbore would be nearly a cylinder.

I'm talking, like, +/- 1/8" tops. Sounds like nothing, but a mouthpiece that goes in 1/8" less (but maintains the same overall length outside the slide) , could have a much wider backbore taper, and vice versa.

Older horns, specifically older Conn's leadpipes have a different taper than todays standard. The differences are in the rate of taper. Today's standard is a Morse taper, which has larger taper rise than what we often refer to as a Remington shank. Having a slower rate of taper (closer to a Brown and Sharpe taper rise), the Remington shank ends up being longer.

I think it's a myth that the longer Schilke shanks were meant to fit Remington shank receivers better. Have you actually tried it? They don't. It also doesn't affect the gap at all assuming the size at the end of the taper isn't any different. My personal theory having read some of the ideas that Mr. Schilke wrote down is that he felt having a little more conical bore in the backbore was better for tuning than having your cylindrical tuning slide extended that tiny bit more, but that's just my guess. They do have more resistance than the shorter ones.