TromboneChat

Anyone have thoughts on what would work?

Large bore really isn't the right tool for the job. It's not fair to your section, and even if you're all by yourself in the brass section, probably not fair to the group.

Have you tried a Marcinkiewicz 8H? It seemed a lot more "zippy" than the Bach 6.5 AL to me.

What horn are you planning to pair it with?

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:45 am Have you tried a Marcinkiewicz 8H? It seemed a lot more "zippy" than the Bach 6.5 AL to me.

I’d second that suggestion. With a lightweight nickel silver slide it’s my preferred combo for 1st trombone in a 10 to 12 piece brass group with varied repertoire. I wouldn’t choose to play it on 1st or 2nd in a big band but if the bass was on a big setup it could work, for my tastes, on 3rd.

The Shires 6.5AL copy is great. I had one threaded for DE rims but then ultimately switched when Doug came out with his new E8* shanks last year. It's shallower than I thought I would ever play, but if you get the right leadpipe setup, wow does it sing without being stuffy... which is often what I found with using such a small piece. The Yamaha Peter Sullivan is also in that ballpark.

Uh maybe the... Bach 6 1/2AL?

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:43 am Large bore really isn't the right tool for the job. It's not fair to your section, and even if you're all by yourself in the brass section, probably not fair to the group.

“I’m not going to answer your question or contribute, just tell you that you’re wrong without ever hearing you play.”

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:08 am Uh maybe the... Bach 6 1/2AL?

With a large bore, might the 6 1/2A be better? The 6 1/2AL has the same throat as the small shank version, while the 6 1/2A large shank has a larger backbore.

The kanstul 6 1/2AL mouthpieces that came with my horns were like this as well.

Dsbones wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:32 am Anyone have thoughts on what would work?

Can't give suggestions without additional information. Such as:
• What instrument do you play?
• What mouthpiece (s) do you play now?
• What other mouthpieces have you tried?
• What's wrong with your current setup?
• What is your "commercial" application?
• What music styles will you be playing?
• What's your budget?
• Any particular prejudices (pro or anti) with mouthpieces you have tried?
• Material preferences (silver-plated brass, gold-plated brass, stainless steel, titanium, polycarbonate, delrin, buffalo horn, ...)?

The usual answer is D Elliott.

Faxx makes a large shank 6 and 1/2 AL.

It also depends on whether you're talking about rim size, cup depth, or both.

It's not just bore or backbore size that affects resistance and overall effectiveness.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:45 am Have you tried a Marcinkiewicz 8H? It seemed a lot more "zippy" than the Bach 6.5 AL to me.

What horn are you planning to pair it with?

Yes I have be of those. Used it awhile back but I couldn’t seem to agree with it. Might give it another try. I have a bit of a frankenbone really, but it’s essentially an 88h with a yellow brass shires bell flare. Really just asking to see what others play and get some ideas is all

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am

Burgerbob wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 6:08 am Uh maybe the... Bach 6 1/2AL?

With a large bore, might the 6 1/2A be better? The 6 1/2AL has the same throat as the small shank version, while the 6 1/2A large shank has a larger backbore.

The kanstul 6 1/2AL mouthpieces that came with my horns were like this as well.

That seems interesting. I didn’t know Bach made a 6 1/2A. Might be worth looking into. I had also considered a HD in a similar 61/2 sizing

MrHCinDE wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 5:17 am

BGuttman wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:45 am Have you tried a Marcinkiewicz 8H? It seemed a lot more "zippy" than the Bach 6.5 AL to me.

I’d second that suggestion. With a lightweight nickel silver slide it’s my preferred combo for 1st trombone in a 10 to 12 piece brass group with varied repertoire. I wouldn’t choose to play it on 1st or 2nd in a big band but if the bass was on a big setup it could work, for my tastes, on 3rd.

Yes that’s one of the issue sometimes is fitting in with those around. I have one on the shelf I’ll dig out and try spending some more time with it. Picked up a standard Bach 5GL awhile back which feels great for more legit playing, but finding something with a bit more zip would be great when needed, as you said above

Dsbones wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 1:37 pm

tbonesullivan wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:51 am With a large bore, might the 6 1/2A be better? The 6 1/2AL has the same throat as the small shank version, while the 6 1/2A large shank has a larger backbore.

The kanstul 6 1/2AL mouthpieces that came with my horns were like this as well.

That seems interesting. I didn’t know Bach made a 6 1/2A. Might be worth looking into. I had also considered a HD in a similar 61/2 sizing

Also Bach 6 and 1/2AM. F/.257” throat

Redthunder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:13 am

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 3:43 am Large bore really isn't the right tool for the job. It's not fair to your section, and even if you're all by yourself in the brass section, probably not fair to the group.

“I’m not going to answer your question or contribute, just tell you that you’re wrong without ever hearing you play.”

Well before everyone gets all mad, I guess I'd ask why you want to play large bore on commercial music? The OP is asking for mouthpiece suggestions. That could be a long search if the root issue is just not using a small horn.

harrisonreed wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 4:44 pm

Redthunder wrote: ↑Mon Sep 19, 2022 7:13 am

“I’m not going to answer your question or contribute, just tell you that you’re wrong without ever hearing you play.”

Well before everyone gets all mad, I guess I'd ask why you want to play large bore on commercial music? The OP is asking for mouthpiece suggestions. That could be a long search if the root issue is just not using a small horn.

Perhaps it’s my fault and I should have worded my question better…..just curious If anyone had ideas or experience with this combination really. I play small and large tenor and bass and it seems sometime in some situations, not all, a large bore tenor would work very well.

Wick 6bl, Various Bach 61/2’s all work well with large bore, or really dial in what you want by chatting to Doug Elliott

My large bore Stork T2S (S = "symphonic" backbore) in heavy blank just rocks with my Abilene 88H... But a bit smaller in rim size than a 6 1/2...

I'd like to point out that for years the standard mouthpiece supplied with Bach 42 trombones was the 6.5AL (although Bach dealers would allow you to swap for a different mouthpiece with your new instrument).

Over the years I have had good results using a Laskey 54M with a Bach 42B, Conn 8H, and (currently) a King 4B-F; used this Laskey 54 + large bore in any number of commercial settings, mostly small groups, Latin stuff, and NOLA style brass bands. Also for orchestral pops gigs on Principal trombone.

Hammond 13M large shank, perhaps custom-ordered with a T4 backbore.

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:31 pm Hammond 13M large shank, perhaps custom-ordered with a T4 backbore.

Is that a more open or tighter backbore?

droffilcal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:08 am Over the years I have had good results using a Laskey 54M with a Bach 42B, Conn 8H, and (currently) a King 4B-F; used this Laskey 54 + large bore in any number of commercial settings, mostly small groups, Latin stuff, and NOLA style brass bands. Also for orchestral pops gigs on Principal trombone.

I second the 54M recommendation. I've had experiences very similar to yours, mostly with a straight 70's 4B.

Although I have yet to try a large-shank version, I've recently been through a couple Greg Black 6.5AL's trying to get I suppose what could be described as some more "commercial" attack and sound characteristics out of it, a light-blank Futuro rim might work great on a large bore.

Dsbones wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 1:31 pm Hammond 13M large shank, perhaps custom-ordered with a T4 backbore.

Is that a more open or tighter backbore?

The large shank M-cup Hammonds come by default with the T5 backbore. According to Hammond: "This is the most open, and darkest backbore. I use this backbore to balance the large bore M so as not to be too aggressive or edgy."

The ML and L cup large shanks come with the T4 backbore, still very open.

Being as you want the piece for commercial stuff, aggressive/edgy might be a good thing so you could want the T4 backbore. If you decide to go the Hammond route, you could always send a message and ask about it.

Noel,

Have you ever tried stainless steel? Giddings has several mouthpieces that might work for you. The ones that I know are all just a touch bigger than a 6½AL (perhaps closer to a 5G). These include their
• NB-101
• Euros
• Boreas

Another stainless steel outlier (but quite "commercial"): Loud LM52L (6½AL-sized).

My fallback large-bore mouthpiece is the Schilke 51 (or its "new and improved" version, the Schilke D5.1) - but perhaps a bit "symphonic" for your needs. Also Schilke 51C4.

An interesting option (though perhaps also "symphonic") might be one of the Griego / Bousfield mouthpieces, such as the Bousfield S5. Or the Griego 5M.

A touch smaller than a 6½AL, but perhaps with the sound you want: Stork Custom T1

Some players like the 6½-sized Yamaha "Alain Trudel"

Good luck with your search.

bassclef wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:21 pm

droffilcal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:08 am Over the years I have had good results using a Laskey 54M with a Bach 42B, Conn 8H, and (currently) a King 4B-F; used this Laskey 54 + large bore in any number of commercial settings, mostly small groups, Latin stuff, and NOLA style brass bands. Also for orchestral pops gigs on Principal trombone.

I second the 54M recommendation. I've had experiences very similar to yours, mostly with a straight 70's 4B.

Although I have yet to try a large-shank version, I've recently been through a couple Greg Black 6.5AL's trying to get I suppose what could be described as some more "commercial" attack and sound characteristics out of it, a light-blank Futuro rim might work great on a large bore.

droffilcal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:08 am Over the years I have had good results using a Laskey 54M with a Bach 42B, Conn 8H, and (currently) a King 4B-F; used this Laskey 54 + large bore in any number of commercial settings, mostly small groups, Latin stuff, and NOLA style brass bands. Also for orchestral pops gigs on Principal trombone.

Finetales wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 3:32 pm

Dsbones wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 2:50 pm

Is that a more open or tighter backbore?

The large shank M-cup Hammonds come by default with the T5 backbore. According to Hammond: "This is the most open, and darkest backbore. I use this backbore to balance the large bore M so as not to be too aggressive or edgy."

The ML and L cup large shanks come with the T4 backbore, still very open.

Being as you want the piece for commercial stuff, aggressive/edgy might be a good thing so you could want the T4 backbore. If you decide to go the Hammond route, you could always send a message and ask about it.

droffilcal wrote: ↑Tue Sep 20, 2022 11:08 am Over the years I have had good results using a Laskey 54M with a Bach 42B, Conn 8H, and (currently) a King 4B-F; used this Laskey 54 + large bore in any number of commercial settings, mostly small groups, Latin stuff, and NOLA style brass bands. Also for orchestral pops gigs on Principal trombone.

I did not know laskey made a 54M in a large shank? Or do you use a small shank with MP sleeve?

Laskey made large shank 54M

I would second the old Bousfield S5...very 'zippy,' but might be a bit tough to find at this point.

CheeseTray wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:04 am I would second the old Bousfield S5...very 'zippy,' but might be a bit tough to find at this point.

The griego V5 or S5?……or are there differences at all?

I do this size with a large shank option. 7c sized also.

Dsbones wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:48 pm

CheeseTray wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 7:04 am I would second the old Bousfield S5...very 'zippy,' but might be a bit tough to find at this point.

The griego V5 or S5?……or are there differences at all?

S5.
They are different.

5CL would be up your alley too.

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:16 am I do this size with a large shank option. 7c sized also.

Around the 6 1/2 and 7C?…..not wanting this setup for playing loud etc, basically just wanting something small with a clear upper register which still has a good dependable open low register.

Dsbones wrote: ↑Wed Sep 28, 2022 6:50 pm

LIBrassCo wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 3:16 am I do this size with a large shank option. 7c sized also.

Around the 6 1/2 and 7C?…..not wanting this setup for playing loud etc, basically just wanting something small with a clear upper register which still has a good dependable open low register.

Yes. I mean, in reality if I'm doing a custom spec mouthpiece I'll put any set of specs together the player wants. So if the 6.5 rim size is the part that's essential, I'll design around it accordingly. Just did a tenor mouthpiece thats more or less a 4gish cup depth with a 2gish rim size for someone, and created a custom internal contour to optimize how those specs will work together. Same concept more or less (on the opposite end of the spectrum of course).

All of these exotic options are nice, but if you get on well with a 5GL, you might consider a 5GS for a more lively sound. It has a shallower cup and smaller throat/backbore than the standard 5G.

Posaunus wrote: ↑Sat Sep 24, 2022 8:10 am

Dsbones wrote: ↑Fri Sep 23, 2022 9:48 pm

The griego V5 or S5?……or are there differences at all?

S5.
They are different.

Posaunus is correct, not the Griego. I meant the older S5. It was one of three sizes produced: the S5, S4, and S - the S being the largest. They also had a little gimmick of providing small neoprene rings to place around the throat to change their feel (I never bothered with them). All three are very interesting and responsive mouthpieces and play unlike anything else of their comparable sizes on the market. They have relatively V-shaped cups compared to most mouthpieces.
I'm a large bore player and use the S5 as a '"cheater." I also really like the S4, which is similar in size to a Bach 4G or 5G.

The Yamaha 51B could be just the ticket (and it will only cost you $50 to find out). The rim size and mouth-feel will be similar to a 6.5, but it has a shallower cup which will add a nice energy to the sound (lively and energetic, but not sharp or shrill). I love Yamaha's 51B, large shank/small shank both.

My Artisan Strad A47 likes my Gilkes Sig piece w/a Conn-Selmer adapter so well I had the adapter soldered on permanently. It’s the only adapter that can be soldered in place to work with that piece.

Model34 wrote: ↑Sat Oct 08, 2022 12:03 am My Artisan Strad A47 likes my Gilkes Sig piece w/a Conn-Selmer adapter so well I had the adapter soldered on permanently. It’s the only adapter that can be soldered in place to work with that piece.

That interesting. What’s different about the conn selmer adapter? You could you send a photo of it?

The problem is that the MGSig. has a third ring on the stem. So none of the adapters snug in place. The C-S adapter is shorter and it too doesn’t snug in place either, but it is excruciatingly close to fitting. So I just put it in the receiver, and very, very carefully put the piece in it making sure not to lean the horn except with it touching my chops. To my utter surprise the horn loved it. To be clear it is only the width of a human hair from fitting as it should. So I took it to the shop and had it soldered. It looks like it’s part of the mouthpiece. BTW, Shires has no large shank ver. available.

Model34 wrote: ↑Mon Oct 10, 2022 10:14 am The problem is that the MGSig. has a third ring on the stem. So none of the adapters snug in place. The C-S adapter is shorter and it too doesn’t snug in place either, but it is excruciatingly close to fitting.C2F547F2-5444-4F68-A9F1-42349F948ED8.jpeg So I just put it in the receiver, and very, very carefully put the piece in it making sure not to lean the horn except with it touching my chops. To my utter surprise the horn loved it. To be clear it is only the width of a human hair from fitting as it should. So I took it to the shop and had it soldered. It looks like it’s part of the mouthpiece. BTW, Shires has no large shank ver. available. 6B694969-22A2-4484-AA9C-AC999EA809C5.jpeg

Ah that makes sense. You find the lower register works with the smaller throat and backbore? That’s one of the main things I can’t get past is a smaller MP works in mid and upper but you lose the bottom end

The Gilkes is a little bit deeper than a Schilke 51. It has little bit more cupiness; it has more girth; the rim is more massive, and has a larger circumference. Of special note is the size and massiveness of the three external rings around the throat! Let me be clear: I have played straight horns almost all of my 68 years of playing trombone. Right shoulder pain and getting old have encouraged me to go to a trigger. In doing so I sought a horn with no interference in the sound, blow, or feel of the Bb side, and with the least interference in the sound, blow, and feel on the F side from a straight horn. The Conn CL valve is the winner in this regard. My only use for the trigger is to facilitate C and B in the staff, and F and E below it. Lower I do not go or explore. Standard pedal notes excepted of course. I moved to the A47 to get a much less physically heavy horn, and to get the Bach sound. So I know nothing about how the Gilkes piece works for those working extensively below the staff. It works perfectly for the notes I mentioned that I care about. The rotary valve on my A47BO does not seem to interfere with the Bb side, and only minimally on the F side.