TromboneChat

Hey all. My current workhorse is a Bach 5GB; previously it was a Bach 4GB. I played the 4GB a few years back to get a deeper sound, and the “B” rim was comfortable to play with my overbite and crooked teeth. I had braces put on and decided to use the 5GB while I was putting out less sound.

That era has passed, thankfully. However, these Bach “B” rims are simply not doing it for my playing anymore. They seem to have a pronounced high point and don’t distribute widely across the face (uncomfortable and squirrelly!). I’ve played a few flatter, wider rims; the Denis Wick is comfortable, and seems to get a clear response on the front of the note (as opposed to the “squirrelly” nature of the 5GB rim). These are just how the mouthpiece responds for me.

The depth of the 5GB is also a great depth for solo/chamber work (with my current playing). I could use something a tad deeper to smooth out the sound in a symphonic/ensemble context, or something with a more open throat. The Bach seems tight in the back.

I have not played through a pile of mouthpieces as many veterans would suggest. This sounds like a wonderful time! Unfortunately I do not have access to a plethora of mouthpieces… it’ll be a few months before I’m at any conferences. There’s no issue in ordering/returning mouthpieces, just trying to get a starting point before making the plunge

What mouthpiece makes would the trombone gurus recommend? I’ve looked into the Greg Black symphony line, the Griego artist series, the Laskey Alessi series. The goal is something that achieves a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim (subjective yes, just something without a pronounce high point as the 5GB has) and wider inner diameter. Thinking 4G inner diameter with a cup depth slightly deeper or throat slightly more open at the front, and slightly more weight.

Thanks for reading a long post and all the advice folks

The Greg Black Kitzman model (5g with a .277 backbore) is a nice option leaning towards the Symphonic size, but still with some sparkle and clarity.

Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.

For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:41 pm The Greg Black Kitzman model (5g with a .277 backbore) is a nice option leaning towards the Symphonic size, but still with some sparkle and clarity.

Doug's XT104/105 with a G series cup and shank are beautiful take on the 5g size. Especially great for chamber and solo stuff.

For comfort, and my own personal choice, I gotta say that LI Brass have the most rounded rims, to the point where they feel larger than listed size. The new 525 Romero might be a good piece to try, same with the Romero 550 if you want more of a 4G rim feel.

The whole Elliott system is so interesting. I’ll try and get in contact with him. I know a guy with some of his equipment; unfortunately, it’s for a Conn with a remington shank?

I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?

I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around

If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.

Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.

Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.

Good luck.

The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home

tyrannothesaurus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:56 pm

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:41 pm
I’m having trouble finding info on the kitzman model. Is it just a light weight Greg Black 5G?

I have not heard of Long Island Brass! Time do some poking around

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:59 pm If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.

Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.

Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.

Good luck.

Another Elliot player here after years on a Schilke 51B, he fit me on LT102 rim. It is indeed similar to the 5G that came with my Benge 165F.

I can use the same 102 rim on all horns and find it a great fit on the medium and large tenors...
LT102/F+/G8 on .547"
LT102/D/D4 on .522"
LT101/C+/D2 on .485/500"

BGuttman wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 3:59 pm If you like Wick rims, a 5BL might be a good replacement for the 5GB. I went from a Bach 4G to a Wick 4BL. The BL size is a little shallower and smaller than the AL size and might fit your needs.

Doug Elliott and Long Island Brass are both members here. If they are looking in, I hope they will post.

Doug's system is VERY customizable. You can dial in a rim size, rim shape, cup size, and backbore. I know William Lang suggested a 104 or 105 rim, but a 101 rim is (as far as Doug could measure) the same as a Bach 5G. I play a LT 102 with an E cup for smaller tenor and a G cup for symphonic tenor. Again, I come from a 4G size originally.

Good luck.

I’m not huge on the Denis Wick cups for the trombone. Rim is very comfortable however, I love their response on the euphonium!

He may have suggested the 104/105 because I mentioned going for a larger rim. I had switched to smaller while I had braces, but generally I use a Bach 4 size rim.

Thanks for your advice. What’s a good way to contact Mr. Elliott? I sent him an email a while back, but I may have had the wrong email address/caught him in a busy period.

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home

Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?

Thanks for your advice. What’s a good way to contact Mr. Elliott? I sent him an email a while back, but I may have had the wrong email address/caught him in a busy period.

Doug has an e-mail link on his Web Site: www.dougelliottmouthpieces.com.

Not to hijack the thread but what is the difference between a DE LT104 G8 and an XT104 G8?

XT has a larger cup volume. Inner diameter of the XT cup is wider than the LT cup.

I personally have felt that the regular weight GBs are more suited for a modern orchestral sound, and the light weight can be a little more versatile for chamber/solo/commercial music. I wouldn't say it's a huge difference though, after all, Kitzman sounded like a million bucks.

tyrannothesaurus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:55 am

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 4:45 pm The Kitzman is indeed a Greg Black 5G L .277 - I had to double check when I got home

Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?

WilliamLang wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 10:13 am I personally have felt that the regular weight GBs are more suited for a modern orchestral sound, and the light weight can be a little more versatile for chamber/solo/commercial music. I wouldn't say it's a huge difference though, after all, Kitzman sounded like a million bucks.

tyrannothesaurus wrote: ↑Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:55 am

Still slightly larger than the Bach 5 throat! From a numbers perspective at least. Interesting.
What do you think about the light vs. regular weight Greg Blacks?

Interesting! Thanks for answering my myriad questions.

I've just realized I'm within 3 hours of the Warburton factory... It would be silly of me to not go play their mouthpieces! I understand the Warburtons and Greg Blacks play quite unlike each other however; I've toyed with some Warburtons in the past and enjoyed them. Do they stack up to each other in any way? Is the Warburton heavier than the standard Greg Blacks?

Iirc finetails is a big Warburton proponent here - I haven't had the chance to try their pieces yet.

tyrannothesaurus wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 2:35 pm What mouthpiece makes would the trombone gurus recommend? The goal is something that achieves a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim

Similar in feel to a 5G, but a more stable, rounded sound, with a more comfortable rim:

Here are the brands that come to mind based on what you're looking for:

Greg Blacks
Warburton
Laskey
Ultimate Brass
Griego