Half plunger on trigger notes

[imsevimse]

Finally I got a basstrombone part where all the years I've practiced my factitious notes saved me. I did it. I had to tell the tenor players so they could applaud me

/Tom

[Burgerbob]

Just play the real notes and don't use a plunger.

[Doug Elliott]

Don't you love it when a trombone player (Sammy) writes stuff he knows very well is impossible?
But I'm sure that was done in the copywork or editing by somebody else.

[imsevimse]

Don't you love it when a trombone player (Sammy) writes stuff he knows very well is impossible?
But I'm sure that was done in the copywork or editing by somebody else.

It's not impossible and I believe he did know his bussiness. I agree it's impossible if you haven't enough practice on factitious notes, and obviously most haven't.

/Tom

[Doug Elliott]

Still... why write that?

[harrisonreed]

Possible, but exactly like Doug said -- why write that? Major pain to do.

Screenshot_20200518-160401_1_1.png

And of course, our guy here asks instead, "okay, how can I play that exactly as written?"

[brassmedic]

Just play the real notes and don't use a plunger.

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[Savio]

Half plunger? Cover half of the bell with a plunger mute? Strange writing again. A little spoon of salt will help Tom.

Leif

[MStarke]

If you can do it, great!

I wouldn't bother too much...

[TomInME]

Just play the real notes and don't use a plunger.

I find it easier to imitate a plunger sound using the real notes, than the other way around.
What's on the page tells you how it should sound, not how to make that sound.

[Mamaposaune]

My low C's always sound like I'm using a half-plunger.

[tbdana]

My low C's always sound like I'm using a half-plunger.

Aw, man, you stole my joke!

[Wilktone]

The Basie recording of this tune has trumpets in half plunger but trombones sound open. I suspect the publisher or some editor noted the half plunger in the trumpets and decided to include trombones as well, I doubt Nestico wrote that.

[Kbiggs]

Just for fun, I wonder if you could rig up a stand with a plunger set at bell height so you could rotate to one sideand place the plunger over half the bell? I think somebody here on TC rigged up a bucket mute for a stupid-quick mute change during a musical.

[JohnL]

Just for fun, I wonder if you could rig up a stand with a plunger set at bell height so you could rotate to one sideand place the plunger over half the bell? I think somebody here on TC rigged up a bucket mute for a stupid-quick mute change during a musical.

I've seen pics of trombone sections in the Big Band era with their derbies mounted on stands.

[dbwhitaker]

I faced the same thing with a Nestico chart last night, but only 2 notes. I just played them in the upper octave.

Screenshot 2024-10-23 at 11.16.35 AM.png

[tbdana]

I dunno. I'll bet Arnold Palmer could do it.

[Posaunus]

I dunno. I'll bet Arnold Palmer could do it.

Hmm. Apparently Arnold was quite the man!

[Doug Elliott]

Half plunger? No no no.... Arnold didn't do anything halfway. "I got your plunger right here."

[imsevimse]

I dunno. I'll bet Arnold Palmer could do it.

American politics if anyone didn't get that. Had to Google Arnold to understand. I thought he was some unknown bass trombonist who could do plunger work and apparently he at least had the tools to do part of it. I get the joke now and what's not a joke is your ex-president apparently has a special interest in Arnold's physics.

Now to the subject....

I wonder if Bill Hughes was the bass trombonist Sammy Nestico had in mind when he wrote those half plunger parts. I know George Roberts could do them but at the time when bass trombonists only had one valve the skill of factitious notes were probably important. I'll bet those old guys could do them if asked, and they are infact easier to do with plunger.

/Tom

[Burgerbob]

Honestly, I doubt Sammy or any of those arrangers knew about false tones.

[Doug Elliott]

In case anybody doesn't know, Sammy was a fantastic trombonist and was the leader of the Airmen of Note in the late 1950's. Then he moved over and was the arranger of the Marine Band for the rest of his military band career in DC.
He most certanly knew about false tones but I still doubt he would have written that.

The Note's library has his original handwritten parts of many of his big band charts that were later published.

[Matt K]

This is speculation, though not much more than other guesses, but I agree that whenever Sammy wrote this part, the section probably had something that allowed the user to move their bell to something that had a half plunger, derby, etc. attached to it.

For "Fly me to the Moon," where one has to operate the plunger for wahs, it does have the possible optional pitch. I would interpret that as, "If the section uses a plunger, play the possible note or use a false tone. If you can do it otherwise, play the lower note." That's not an easy instruction to put in the part, and what was written conveys basically the same thing.

For a lot of the Basie stuff, remember that it was pretty common for them to make edits for a specific concert that involved things like using/not using mutes, repeats to sections, etc. And that explains BOTH of the sections. Like Doug said, Sammy was a fantastic composer and arranger. Sure, he wasn't perfect, but I'd be willing to bet a large sum of money that whenever Sammy penned anything, there was a good reason for it, and if we knew the specific context, it would all make perfect sense to us.

[tbdana]

This is speculation, though not much more than other guesses, but I agree that whenever Sammy wrote this part, the section probably had something that allowed the user to move their bell to something that had a half plunger, derby, etc. attached to it.

Oh, I have something like this! Except it's a little PVC tube with a slot in it to hold a hat mute. The round end of the tube goes over the top of my trombone stand and the tube stands straight up. There's a slot at the top of the tube that a hat mute sits in, so that the hat just sits there right in front of my bell and I can lean forward to it and use the mute. The same thing could be done with a plunger if one was so motivated. The whole thing costs about $4 to make.

[Olofson]

How dificult is it? I just hade a student who played basstrombone for two years, never used a plunger before. I gave her a plunger, taught her how to hold it, played a low C with plunger and told her to do the same. After a couple minutes she could play low C with plunger.

[tbdana]

How dificult is it? I just hade a student who played basstrombone for two years, never used a plunger before. I gave her a plunger, taught her how to hold it, played a low C with plunger and told her to do the same. After a couple minutes she could play low C with plunger.

How? How is it done? Let's see...

Right hand holds the slide.
Left hand holds the plunger.

Which hand depresses the F trigger?

I'm konfyoozed.

[imsevimse]

How dificult is it? I just hade a student who played basstrombone for two years, never used a plunger before. I gave her a plunger, taught her how to hold it, played a low C with plunger and told her to do the same. After a couple minutes she could play low C with plunger.

How? How is it done? Let's see...

Right hand holds the slide.
Left hand holds the plunger.

Which hand depresses the F trigger?

I'm konfyoozed.

No I do not think you are . I heard you could play a factitious note in one of your shared solos, a low D. A nice recording by the way. I guess you did play that note on the small bore you played everything else on in that rec. Now switch to bass. Change to C, get the plunger and give it a try on 7:th pos. Of course no trigger

/Tom

[brassmedic]

I dunno. I'll bet Arnold Palmer could do it.

American politics if anyone didn't get that. Had to Google Arnold to understand.

He was the inventor of iced tea.

[Posaunus]

American politics, if anyone didn't get that. Had to Google Arnold to understand.

He was the inventor of iced tea.

Actually I believe a proper "Arnold Palmer" is 1/2 iced tea + 1/2 lemonade. Nice summer beverage.

[imsevimse]

He was the inventor of iced tea.

Actually I believe a proper "Arnold Palmer" is 1/2 iced tea + 1/2 lemonade. Nice summer beverage.

The same golfer that made a HUGE impression on your former president? If you hadn't brought it up I wouldn't know about it, and I would have lived the rest of my life uneducated. I would never have known about Mr Palmer and I would still be uneducated about what truly impresses your ex-president. Ice tea? Yes, that may well be, but apparently that was not the BIG thing in this joke.

/Tom

[tbdana]

How? How is it done? Let's see...

Right hand holds the slide.
Left hand holds the plunger.

Which hand depresses the F trigger?

I'm konfyoozed.

No I do not think you are . I heard you could play a factitious note in one of your shared solos, a low D. A nice recording by the way. I guess you did play that note on the small bore you played everything else on in that rec. Now switch to bass. Change to C, get the plunger and give it a try on 7:th pos. Of course no trigger

/Tom

LOL! Busted! Yes, on that recording I did play the low D on a small bore tenor with no F-attachment as a factitious or "false" note. I had forgotten about that until you called me on it.

Oddly, I don't think I've ever tried to play a low C on bass trombone without using at least one trigger. Today I'm gonna do what you suggest and experiment to see if I can get that note to speak without using a trigger. You say in 7th position, but I wonder if it can also be played in 4th. I guess I'll find out. Thanks.

[brassmedic]

He was the inventor of iced tea.

Actually I believe a proper "Arnold Palmer" is 1/2 iced tea + 1/2 lemonade. Nice summer beverage.

Yes. It was a joke. He didn't actually invent iced tea. I was being facetious.

[brassmedic]

Actually I believe a proper "Arnold Palmer" is 1/2 iced tea + 1/2 lemonade. Nice summer beverage.

The same golfer that made a HUGE impression on your former president? If you hadn't brought it up I wouldn't know about it, and I would have lived the rest of my life uneducated. I would never have known about Mr Palmer and I would still be uneducated about what truly impresses your ex-president. Ice tea? Yes, that may well be, but apparently that was not the BIG thing in this joke.

/Tom

He was one of the greatest golfers of all time. Golf is not specific to the United States. In fact, we didn't invent it. Sorry you had to find out about this from such an uncouth person.

[Olofson]

No I do not think you are . I heard you could play a factitious note in one of your shared solos, a low D. A nice recording by the way. I guess you did play that note on the small bore you played everything else on in that rec. Now switch to bass. Change to C, get the plunger and give it a try on 7:th pos. Of course no trigger

/Tom

LOL! Busted! Yes, on that recording I did play the low D on a small bore tenor with no F-attachment as a factitious or "false" note. I had forgotten about that until you called me on it.

Oddly, I don't think I've ever tried to play a low C on bass trombone without using at least one trigger. Today I'm gonna do what you suggest and experiment to see if I can get that note to speak without using a trigger. You say in 7th position, but I wonder if it can also be played in 4th. I guess I'll find out. Thanks.

Just try and you find out what is best.

[Matt K]

I’m a little surprised AP’s fame is so localized. I like the half tea half lemonade beverage, and I’ve ordered it in both Ireland and Italy and didn’t have to explain it. Wonder if it’s just known by service workers

[timothy42b]

No I do not think you are . I heard you could play a factitious note in one of your shared solos, a low D. A nice recording by the way. I guess you did play that note on the small bore you played everything else on in that rec. Now switch to bass. Change to C, get the plunger and give it a try on 7:th pos. Of course no trigger

/Tom

Or, C in F trigger 2cnd. That works and may be easier for some, at least we don't have to stretch, and don't need the attachment tuned so flat.

That chart someone provided of where the factitious notes can be played was really helpful, as was your little exercise for working on them.

Then by extension you can play the pitch of pedal Bb in T4, and it has quite a different character, more like a note I think. And the B natural in T3 of course.

[imsevimse]

No I do not think you are . I heard you could play a factitious note in one of your shared solos, a low D. A nice recording by the way. I guess you did play that note on the small bore you played everything else on in that rec. Now switch to bass. Change to C, get the plunger and give it a try on 7:th pos. Of course no trigger

/Tom

Or, C in F trigger 2cnd. That works and may be easier for some, at least we don't have to stretch, and don't need the attachment tuned so flat.

That chart someone provided of where the factitious notes can be played was really helpful, as was your little exercise for working on them.

Then by extension you can play the pitch of pedal Bb in T4, and it has quite a different character, more like a note I think. And the B natural in T3 of course.

I think you missed the "half-plunger" when you read the part. Look again and it will make sense. The post is about a solution to solve this and play as is.

If you skip the plunger then T2 would have been my first choice too on a single trigger, or I could have pulled the tuningslide on the f-attachement, it depends on what was needed elsewhere in the part. A sustained open C in fortissimo is when I definitely would pull and then play as far out as possible on 7th (with trigger pressed), or I would change horn and use my double even though I've heard long sustained C's done as a factitious note too. In most cases in old parts I can do with a single with a few factitious notes. In this case we also deal with a plunger and you would then need 3 arms if you are bound to play a C on the trigger because you need one arm for the trigger, one for the plunger and one for the slide. To use a bass with 2 valves Bb/F/D and play the C at TT3, at the bell, same place as normal 4th pos, is very convenient. The double is often a saviour many times because it has a lot of advantage uf you can not do factitious notes but it doesn't help to solve the actual technical problem with the part which is to operate a plunger while playing notes below

To solve on any trombone, straight, single or double you hold the plunger with your left hand and also support the bell with that hand just as you normally do when you use a plunger. You streach to reach 7th position to get the C as a factitious note. From first position the factitious notes without need of a trigger are 1st: Gb, 2nd: F, 3rd: E, 4th: Eb, 5th: D, 6th: Db, 7th: C. They are also a bit easier on straight horns especially the notes Gb, F, and E. I belive it is the added braces and the mass of the valve that makes the first three not to respond quite as easy on a trigger horn as on a straight horn. You will notice this if you compare a straight horn to your trigger horn. The Eb, D, Db and C which also are the ones you need in this case are easier compared to the first three. Then again the plunger also helps them.


/Tom

[Wilktone]

Just have the trombone section play open, like I believe Nestico originally wrote it. Again, Basie's recording has trumpets in half plunger and the trombone section is open there. It's probably something that inadvertently got added in by a well-intentioned editor when the chart got published.

If you really feel the urge to have the trombone section muted there you can have the bass trombonist play with a bucket or cup mute in to approximate the sound of the rest of the section, or even have the entire trombone section play with buckets.

[imsevimse]

Just have the trombone section play open, like I believe Nestico originally wrote it. Again, Basie's recording has trumpets in half plunger and the trombone section is open there. It's probably something that inadvertently got added in by a well-intentioned editor when the chart got published.

If you really feel the urge to have the trombone section muted there you can have the bass trombonist play with a bucket or cup mute in to approximate the sound of the rest of the section, or even have the entire trombone section play with buckets.

I get your poin but Im trying to share knowledge here about this. I do know I can skip the plunger if I want to. I can always do whatever I want. Right now I hope some are openminded and get a plunger and test for themselves. If you can do it, or if you think you can learn how to do it then you can use it when the problem occurs, if not then don't use the plunger or get a trumpeter to hold it for you

We should acctually share more of the possibilities of our instrument and less about the limitations. Just because I can not do things other can do doesn't mean it should automatically be impossible to all of my students or all readers at this forum. What kind of teacher would I be if I transfer my own limitations on my students and teach them it's no use and no point. Maybe I can not teach them things I can not do myself. In that case they need to seek information elsewhere and be openminded. "Try everything and use what works" is good if you want to learn. I would rank that to be as important as to get a teacher.

/Tom

[Burgerbob]

As I said earlier... in any kind of situation like this in real life, the player would just not use a mute. Life is too short to worry about these kind of details.

[imsevimse]

As I said earlier... in any kind of situation like this in real life, the player would just not use a mute. Life is too short to worry about these kind of details.

Yes and you could rewrite a part that is too high or to fast or too exposed for you too. You could even give it to someone else. If the thread was about 'Life is too short to worry about these kind of details" and "how to rewrite things and make things easier" then I would agree but in this case the "glass is half full" and not "half empty". Why go to the moon? The answer is YOU did it and it could be done. This is turning to philosophy but it was actually about a specific technical problem and how to solve that part I showed you in my first post, and how to be able to play it as written.

/Tom

[jacobgarchik]

Nestico was writing for the F bass trombone, which was more common at the time.
Thein makes a modern instrument that can play half plunger on trigger notes and costs $15,000.

[Kbiggs]

This is speculation, though not much more than other guesses, but I agree that whenever Sammy wrote this part, the section probably had something that allowed the user to move their bell to something that had a half plunger, derby, etc. attached to it.

Oh, I have something like this! Except it's a little PVC tube with a slot in it to hold a hat mute. The round end of the tube goes over the top of my trombone stand and the tube stands straight up. There's a slot at the top of the tube that a hat mute sits in, so that the hat just sits there right in front of my bell and I can lean forward to it and use the mute. The same thing could be done with a plunger if one was so motivated. The whole thing costs about $4 to make.

What does it look like? Do you have a pic?

[GGJazz]

Hi all.

I think that one can play these low fake Cs , Ds , ecc , using the plunger , if he really want to do it ...

Fake tones are not so difficult ; anyway , they do not resonate as real notes does ( obviously...) , so playing it on the bottom of the trbns section will not produce a good result , in my opinion .

I do not even think that the Basie Band' bass trbn player was performing on a F contra ( I think it was Bill Hugues) .

Anyway , as Wilktone wrote above , in the original Basie ' recording , this excerpt was performed OPEN , by the trbn section . Probably the chart that Tom posted above was edited by someone...

( Of course , if one have no choice , he will perform fake tones , instead of real trigger tones . In another Nestico' chart , Belly Roll , there are some low Ds that have to be played with the plunger , so you have to play it fake ) .

Front Burner , Count Basie orchestra , 1975 ; ( the excerpt is performed at 01:54) .



Regards
Giancarlo

[Posaunus]

Nestico was writing for the F bass trombone, which was more common at the time.

Not quite sure what you mean by 'F bass trombone.' Sammy wrote this chart in ~1975 (copyright 1976) for the Basie band (for which he arranged from ~1967-1984). The 4th trombonist then in the Basie band was Bill Hughes, who played a Bb/F single-valve bass trombone. The low C had to be played on the F-attachment at (very) flat 6th position. That of course would make holding a half-plunger while pressing the F-valve lever rather awkward!

I believe, as others have noted, that Sammy didn't intend any of the trombones to use plungers in the Front Burner passage - the plungers were for the trumpets only. The "Half Plunger" instruction was probably added by a copyist who misinterpreted Sammy's instructions. Whether or not Bill Hughes knew about "factitious notes" is irrelevant. The Basie trombone section, as validated by the recording, played the passage unplungered - surely with Sammy Nestico's blessing. And it sounds great!

[tbdana]

Oh, I have something like this! Except it's a little PVC tube with a slot in it to hold a hat mute. The round end of the tube goes over the top of my trombone stand and the tube stands straight up. There's a slot at the top of the tube that a hat mute sits in, so that the hat just sits there right in front of my bell and I can lean forward to it and use the mute. The same thing could be done with a plunger if one was so motivated. The whole thing costs about $4 to make.

What does it look like? Do you have a pic?

I don't, sorry. This is the only photo I have and you can't see it, but you can see the position where the mute is held, whether it be a hat or plunger.

dana pit.jpeg

I'll see if I can take a photo of it tomorrow.

[brassmedic]

Nestico was writing for the F bass trombone, which was more common at the time.
Thein makes a modern instrument that can play half plunger on trigger notes and costs $15,000.

A bargain at half the price.

[afugate]

This is speculation, though not much more than other guesses, but I agree that whenever Sammy wrote this part, the section probably had something that allowed the user to move their bell to something that had a half plunger, derby, etc. attached to it.

Oh, I have something like this! Except it's a little PVC tube with a slot in it to hold a hat mute. The round end of the tube goes over the top of my trombone stand and the tube stands straight up. There's a slot at the top of the tube that a hat mute sits in, so that the hat just sits there right in front of my bell and I can lean forward to it and use the mute. The same thing could be done with a plunger if one was so motivated. The whole thing costs about $4 to make.

This sounds simple to make and very useful. I'm going to put it on my list of stuff to build. Thanks for sharing your idea.

--Andy in OKC

[Kbiggs]

What does it look like? Do you have a pic?

I don't, sorry. This is the only photo I have and you can't see it, but you can see the position where the mute is held, whether it be a hat or plunger.


dana pit.jpeg


I'll see if I can take a photo of it tomorrow.

[timothy42b]

I think you missed the "half-plunger" when you read the part. Look again and it will make sense. The post is about a solution to solve this and play as is.


/Tom

I didn't miss it (pretends to be offended! but not really) I just veered off topic.

Actually for some of us the factitious notes sound pretty close to half plunger anyway, so your solution is doubly good.