TromboneChat

I was looking at Simone Mantia's "The Trombone Virtuoso" from IMSLP, and was a little surprised to see how much of the book is in Bb treble clef. Normally we discuss Bb treble in terms of British brass band, but I guess it was common here in the States, at least for a time. In fact, he says "Many amateurs can only read in the Treble Clef, whereas if they could read in the Bass Clef, it would put an end to many of their troubles."

Does anyone know when treble clef usage faded? Does it have anything to do with the rise of banding in public schools (which I assume, without evidence, was happening around the time The Music Man was set)?

But he wrote: "As a rule, the treble clef is only used for playing the so-called Tenor parts in band arrangements.", and the regular trombone parts are in bass clef. So I'm not sure it ever was that common to write trombone parts in treble clef in the US. Tenor horn and baritone horn parts for sure.

Trombone music in symphony orchestras was usually written in alto and tenor clef in the 19th Century. Music for outdoor ensembles was written in transposed treble clef since moat musicians were multi specialists and would play many different instruments and transposed treble made reading the parts easier, much like saxophones today.

Concert band parts of the late 19h and early 20th Centuries contained both transposed treble and bass parts for the trombones and euphonium indicating a slow change from one to the other. Mantia was trying to prepare trombonists to handle the variety of parts a player cold encounter and thus had clef studies in alto, tenor, and transposed treble clef as well as bass clef.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 4:06 am Concert band parts of the late 19h and early 20th Centuries contained both transposed treble and bass parts for the trombones and euphonium indicating a slow change from one to the other.

I vote we continue the slow change and adopt the great staff as needed. That means notes above middle C or so (depending on the rest of the piece), certainly all above F in first space treble, will be notated on concert pitch treble clef in that octave. We have a few forum members who regularly play above the F on top of the treble clef but for 99.99% of us that is plenty. No leger lines, no "is that a G, B, or D" in dim light. Well, for bass trombone players, but they have that problem ow.

Bb treble was common because trumpet players often moved over to baritone.

I agree every thing should go concert pitch. Tuba players somehow deal with it, trumpet and clarinet players should be able to too. Reading music that doesn't match the pitch coming out tweaks my ears. I don't have perfect pitch but it still drives me crazy.

hyperbolica wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 7:14 am Tuba players somehow deal with it, ...

Yes. Serious tuba players (among which I don't count myself) often have three or more tubas pitched in different keys (BBb, CC, Eb, F). Aside from certain areas of deviation (British Brass Bands and some other European or South American venues), the music encountered is in non-transposed bass clef. So basically tuba players (for what I think most would argue are grounds of simplicity and expediency) simply learn the "different fingerings", and when they pick up a horn, just use the appropriate fingerings. People who "double" on tuba, often view this approach as intimidating or needlessly burdensome, and go with an alternative where they use various "tricks" or transpositions to play the instrument. They will often indulge in complex arguments defending such an "indirect" approach to reading and playing the parts as simpler.

The typical tubist approach does not seem to be a popular one with other instruments (including, often, euphonium -- which may be a bit surprising -- and even the higher pitched members of the tuba family). And I don't think you'll get much support for your "Let's go with concert pitch everywhere". More broadly it could be argued that such an approach is the one that's out of step. Look at most "families" of wind instruments where members of the family are pitched in different fundamental keys (flutes, clarinets, saxophones, trumpets) and you'll see that the view is that one set of fingerings rules all members of the family -- which facilitates players in those families easily and rapidly switching among the different members. It's undeniable that there's a lot of utility there.

The whole rationale about transposed treble clef was that the main gamut of the instrument went from C below the staff to A above the staff . Not too different from tenor clef. Bass clef for the tenor trombone tends to run very high on the staff resulting in parts with lots of ledger lines (sometimes making them hard to read).

For some reason, maybe because piano only used bass and treble clefs, it became customary to use bass clef for trombone starting in the Jazz era.

I'm not partial to use of the Great Staff because the trombone sits rather low on the treble portion. Learning one clef is hard enough; trying to start out with several is much harder.

I do not know about things in US but since we are a few not living in US I could tell about wether the treble is fading a way also here, or not.

I think it depends. If the tradition of brassband is strong in the country like in Great Britain then the skill of reading treble in Bb will not fade for decades. We have had a strong tradition here (Sweden) too but it is changing. A lot of the pro brass musicians here have their background in the Salvation Army. Unfortunately those bands now have difficulties to fill chairs ao there will be a change in the supply of good brassmusicians. I think it can be noticed already. It shows because new musicians are not as experienced in section playing as they were back in time. One cause is they are not as trained in the classical idiom as earlier generations unless they choose to study in one of the schools with music profile from teens. If they do they will play in orchestras and chamber ensambles.

We have also had a tradition of playing "old" traditional settings originally written for our traditiinal valved instruments. A sixtet could be Eb-Cornet, Bb-Cornet, Eb-Altohorn and 1:st and 2:nd Bb Tenor and F-tuba often a Helickon. The tenor parts could be played on "ventilbasun" or tenor horn. A ventilbasun is kind if a valve trombone but much different in sound. In the 50ies the trombone replaced the valved basun in many of the ensambles but we kept the old repertoire. The repertoire and tradition were spread over the whole country and many amateurs played those gigs. There were also repertoire for octet which then had flute and clarinet added. Both the repertoire for sixtet and octet came with a (optional) drum-part so a drummer was also a part of the sixtet and the octet but he wasn't counted

It's from playing Bb-treable parts in theese traditional settings I had the opportunity to really dig in to the treble. I didn't do it in a brassband since I'm not grown up in the Salvation Army tradition.

Today not many play the old repertoire anymore and the sixtet and octet folks are getting out of shape. Not many pick up the tradition. The new musicians are more focused on commercial music and then mostly in jazz, pop and funk. This is the younger generation and they do not need to know about any treble clef in Bb because they do not put that on the stand unless they double on trumpet. They do not need to know much about alto clef, tenor clef or transposing parts either. What I've seen is this new generation of good musicians do not not have much of a classical background and classical training at all. When they perform they also usually play in a mic and they do that even when they reherse. I do not know if they practise 'sound" the way I had to do. To produce a good sound isn't the same if you've got a mic.

I do not think these good new musicians choose to read from a treble book in Bb because they want the chords to be non-transposed when it is time for their solo, but they do probably read a lot of non transposred treble clef very fluent.

The skill to read treble clef in Bb for younger trombone players, even the professional ones are rare nowdays. I guess it's only the classically trained you can count on to be able to do it fluently.

/Tom

imsevimse wrote: ↑Fri Nov 01, 2024 10:11 amWe have also had a tradition of playing "old" traditional settings originally written for our traditiinal valved instruments. A sixtet could be Eb-Cornet, Bb-Cornet, Eb-Altohorn and 1:st and 2:nd Bb Tenor and F-tuba often a Helickon. The tenor parts could be played on "ventilbasun" or tenor horn. A ventilbasun is kind if a valve trombone but much different in sound. In the 50ies the trombone replaced the valved basun in many of the ensambles but we kept the old repertoire. The repertoire and tradition were spread over the whole country and many amateurs played those gigs. There were also repertoire for octet which then had flute and clarinet added. Both the repertoire for sixtet and octet came with a (optional) drum-part so a drummer was also a part of the sixtet and the octet but he wasn't counted

A significant portion of Simone Mantia's career took place while a similar transition was taking place here in the USA. The Port Royal Band books (1860's) have parts for Bb tenor horns (written in Bb treble clef). By the turn of the 20th century, it was common for band music to have parts for both Bb tenors (in Bb treble) and trombones (in concert pitch bass); those parts are typically identical other than than the transposition. This duplication of parts persisted at least into the 1920's (as seen in this edition of Edwin Franko Goldman's Chimes of Liberty).

Since my playing is done off a chord sheet, it is basically concert pitch for me. I see F# on the sheet I play an F#, or another note that blends well. Trumpet, just think in bass clef. Trombone and euph, I grew up primarily in bass clef baritone, but could easily play TC part if no BC was available. When I was playing trumpet more regularly with music it was not a problem. French horn, unless I have actual music, I do have to transpose; horn is just a single F horn. Just basically memorized ok, I play whatever to get A,B,C with appropriate sharps and flats. Doing it so long I don’t have to even think about it. Only time it throws me is if we have a last minute key change. Unlike a guitar capo, if it drops I can swap F for Eb tuning crook. Beyond that I really gotta think to transpose on the fly…if Eb doesn’t work, I forget the sheet and just settle on the key and play strictly by ear…like I did on any horn for many years.

What really makes me think is having sheet music…lower notes on tuba and higher notes on trumpet! Rarely use actual music, so it takes me a few times of playing thru something to refresh my memory. Usual practice horn is trumpet, usual scale warmups are in my range of playing so not too bad there. I rarely ever need to play a high C, but I recognize it when I see it. Tuba, it’s like learning all over again. I have a great memory, it just doesn’t last a year!

Bass clef is the original clef. All other clefs are derived from that.

It is known.