TromboneChat

Besides Nils Wogran, Robinson Khoury, Elliot Mason, who are your favorite modern players? Any album recommendation?

John Fedchock.

Andy Martin and Alex Iles

Bob McChesney
Andy Martin
Maybe Marshall Gilkes just because I like his chops.
Oh, and I really like Ido Meshulam's jazz, very sweet.

I think Ido Meshulam’s playing is okay, but he doesn’t use enough slide vibrato.

Barnaby Dickinson
Trevor Mires
Mark Nightingale

UK based.

I note that Alex Iles is 63, Andy Martin is 64, and John Fedchock is 67.

Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.

If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…

What do you mean by contemporary? I honestly don't know too much about different jazz styles, but would put Nils Wogram in a totally different category than Andy Martin or Bob McChesney. Andy and Bob are to my ears not too "contemporary" - probably why I normally prefer them to Nils (who is of course absolutely great, but not my thing).

Here a little promo for Steve Wiest and his album Phröntrange:

Hi folks.

I really enjoy these musicians :

Michael Dease
Steve Davis
Ido Meshulam
Jon Hatamiya

Regards
Giancarlo

One of the best musicians out there today who happens to play trombone is Rita Payes.

I like listening to music where I stop hearing how the music is being made and just hear the song.

"Contemporary"....you. mean 'post-bop', 'avant-garde', 'free'....?

Or players that are building/evolving on past jazz traditions and have unique, personal styles?

If so, we must add Ed Neumeister, Jim Pugh, John Mosca, Joe Fiedler, Alan Farber, .....and then a whole bunch of NYC players to the list, many of whom are totally unknown to the public and range between 20- 80 years old. There are some wonderful jazz players on the scene that are really creating new music built upon the jazz traditions.

I love Mark Nightingale from London. He's awesome and inventive and really composes as he plays.

Ian McDougall was totally 'contemporary' when he was playing and recording. Very unique style built upon the influences of Urbie Green and Jack Teagarden. (he's still alive but pretty much retired now due to some health problems)

Too bad Albert Manglesdorf is dead (he'd be 96 this year). He'd probably still be coming up with new ideas built on jazz traditions.

(Controversial statement time:) a lot of trombone soloists today get pretty boring after a few bars because we know that whatever they play will sound like something they've played a thousand times. Some awesome displays of trombone techniques, but not a lot of music that holds much interest to most non-trombone music lovers.

GGJazz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:05 am
Jon Hatamiya

Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.

Bach5G wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 11:02 pm I note that Alex Iles is 63, Andy Martin is 64, and John Fedchock is 67.

Even Wycliffe is 57. Ches is 55.

If by “contemporary” you mean “still alive”…

Still alive and performing (that's "contemporary" to me), and still making listenable jazz (solo and ensemble) music.

No they're not avant-garde or free jazz or fusion. But their playing is music to my aging ears.

I haven't heard Doug Elliott live, but (from his recordings) I'd bet I'd also find his playing engaging.

None of these would chase my wife out of the room!

Seeing some names here I don't know... gotta check them out.

whyking wrote: ↑Thu Dec 05, 2024 8:55 pm I think Ido Meshulam’s playing is okay, but he doesn’t use enough slide vibrato.

bro i got bad news for you about J.J. Johnson!

i am a contemporary trombone category skeptic - most of these people are either old or not so contemporary stylistically or both. But I also like checking out the younger generation so here's my $.02

Kalia Vanderver
Kalun Leung
Zekkereya El-magharbel
Natalie Cressman
Daniel Bruno
Chris Bates
Andy Clausen
Corey Wilcox

pretty sure they are all in their 20s-30s.

if you want some people in their 40s, we can talk about them too!

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 10:07 am

GGJazz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 6:05 am
Jon Hatamiya

Interesting. What is it about Jon that you particularly like? I only played with him once. It was a gig with no rehearsal only four months after I started playing again, so it was a very small sample at a time I was concentrating on my own comeback. Otherwise, I don't know him. In those few hours we played together, I found him to be a capable player, but his style was not my cup of tea. Of course, one gig is not enough to make any judgments, but I'm curious what people like about him.

Jon is the bomb! Lyrical, harmonically sophisticated, challenging interesting compositions, all over the horn, avoiding the obvious. He teaches at USC i believe. I hired him to play in my trombone gospel band for a gig at sfjazz a few years back.

If the base names are Wogram and Mason, I wouldn't really reply with Steve Davis, Michael Dease, Andy Martin etc... Totally different style of music and playing for most of the time. But there are for sure some recordings where those guys will play some more contemporary stuff as well.

I would probably add a list like that, also including some people not alive anymore:

Albert Mangelsdorff
Conrad 'Conny' Bauer
Marshall Gilkes
Ed Neumeister
Hal Crook(!!!)
Adrian Mears
Steve Turre
Robin Eubanks
Samuel Blaser
Klaus Heidenreich
Glenn Ferris
Janning Trumann
Ilja Reinjoud
Bob Brookmeyer
Shannon Barnett
Andy Hunter
Conrad Herwig

And many more...

Edit: This is a bit more from a European perspective because I haven't really checked out the young American jazz trombone scene.

Hall Crook has been contemporary his whole life.

Hi.

@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .

Also , I totally agree with Doug Elliott about Hal Crook !

Regards
Giancarlo

GGJazz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:03 pm Hi.

@ tbdana : Iin particolar , I like Jon' way about how to build the phrases , his harmonic conception , and his balance in the tension/ release approach .
To me , he is a very good jazz player .

Regards
Giancarlo

Thanks. Like I said, I've only heard him once, on a gig we did together. Grabbed the first thing off YouTube that I found, is this representative of him?

I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?

My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.

I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary.

Hello again.

Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :

Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)


Ragards again
Giancarlo

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:31 pm I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?

My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.

I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary.

I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:47 pm I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.

This is a great question.
would much rather discuss the fine points of style and then umpteenth mouthpiece post.
As I see it, there were always a lot of different ways to play the trombone. Certainly in early jazz there was a lot of aggressive playing. In the swing era you had styles like Tricky Sam, Trummy Young, aggressive in contrast to Dorsey or Lawrence Brown; later you had Al Grey, Butter Jackson, Booty Wood, Roswell, Grachan Moncur, Barry Rogers, and into the 70s with Gary Valente, Ray Anderson, George Lewis, and on. A lot of very fine technique in all these players but a different concept than Urbie Green or Watrous.
I think if you are looking for finesse in the younger generation you will be happy with Andy Hunter, Tim Albright, Natalie Cressman, Zekerreyah or Andy Clausen, all exquisite technicians in a variety of styles.

I recommend Jon's album More than Anything


anyway speaking of contemporary anybody hear the new (old) Joe Henderson/McCoy Tyner live album? that's the kind of contemporary jazz I aspire to play!

just as an aside, it is fascinating to watch videos of people playing, but if i want to check them out i try and find a studio recording or at least an official release rather than youtube. Sometimes youtube is not flattering and often not even put up with permission of the musician. Especially because jazz trombone doesn't record well with room mics or iphones!

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:52 pm

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:47 pm I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

I find this to be a very insulting post. Never mind. Sorry I asked. I think I got all the information I need from this post. You got any recordings of yourself to post, Nelson? Let's hear your no babysitting playing.

Sorry, but I charge for lessons.

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:47 pm

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:31 pm

I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

“Bring it”?

Loud, out of tune, with bad time?

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 1:00 pm I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

Sorry, but I charge for lessons.

One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.

The TOS say...

Be respectful – while there may be disagreements, we expect civility in all correspondences. Members who show a pattern of obnoxious, anti-social, or disrespectful behavior may be banned on a temporary or permanent basis, determined by the site administrators. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, personal attacks, demeaning the character of another individual, public or non-public, or engaging in speech that is knowingly false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, harassing, sexually oriented, threatening, or otherwise a violation of law.

So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?

Nelson is a working trombonist in LA. Enough said.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 1:14 pm

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 1:00 pm I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

Sorry, but I charge for lessons.

One of the things I love about this forum is the absence of trolls and posts like those above from Nelson31. For some reason this person has come out of nowhere to troll me. I have no idea who this guy is. I doubt he can play. He certainly ran away quickly when I asked.

The TOS say...

Be respectful – while there may be disagreements, we expect civility in all correspondences. Members who show a pattern of obnoxious, anti-social, or disrespectful behavior may be banned on a temporary or permanent basis, determined by the site administrators. Such behaviors include, but are not limited to, personal attacks, demeaning the character of another individual, public or non-public, or engaging in speech that is knowingly false, defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, harassing, sexually oriented, threatening, or otherwise a violation of law.

So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?

If you can’t see the irony of you taking offense after the silly posts you’ve made recently, as well as the ignorant condescension of your posts regarding Jon Hatamiya, then I can’t help you.

I’ll happily play a solo on the bandstand when given the opportunity, however, I don’t have anything to prove as I’m not an improviser like anybody listed above. Hopefully we end up on the bandstand together some time, I promise to bring it!

Bach5G wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 1:12 pm

nelson31 wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:47 pm I think the younger players tend to really “bring it” in their respective approaches. They didn’t need an influence to babysit them.

“Bring it”?
Loud, out of tune, with bad time?

Well, there's that (on occasion). Also (from time to time) not respecting the melody or style of the tune, or the way your colleagues play so you can make a sensible whole out of (sometimes) fragmented, lengthy, or disparate solos.

Perhaps we need an updated definition of what constitutes "jazz?"

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 1:14 pm
So, are this guy's posts good and the kind of thing this forum prefers? Do they meet the civility guidelines? I found them purposefully insulting. Have I misinterpreted his posts or the TOS?

This is just my take, please don't read into it any further than it being an observation of an isolated event: You may have initially misinterpreted it as an attack on you or the way you or your generation got into jazz. There is nothing inherently wrong with saying that newer jazz musicians don't need to be brought up, groomed, or "babysat" by older influences. If Nelson's point is that the newer generation is going their own way and rejecting the need to have an influence or mentor, there is nothing wrong with that. It's an opinion.

Your initial reaction seemed to me to be too much, calling it insulting when he was not insulting you or talking about you at all in his post. It didn't seem to be insulting anyone directly. But him responding with the charging for lessons comment certainly did not help.

To Harry:

Okay, if you say so. "Babysit" and "charge for lessons" certainly sounded like targeted insults and not at all how you heard it, but maybe I did misinterpret. I'll consider that I did. Benefit of the doubt, and all.

To Nelson:

I didn't condescend to Jon. All I said was I've only played with him once and found him to be a capable player, but that his jazz style wasn't my cup of tea, though I had only heard him one time. I was asking about him because a number of people here have cited him as a good jazz example and I wanted to understand. I searched his name on YouTube and posted the first thing that came up, asking if it was representative of him. Sorry to repeat what I said above, but it seems necessary. I got a couple good responses that I appreciated. Not yours, but two good ones.

Ignorant? Yeah, I don't know Jon, that's why I asked. Condescending? Not on your life. I try to be supportive of everyone whether they're my cup of tea or not. We're all giving ourselves to this wonderful instrument, and thank goodness we're not all the same. Viva la difference.

I'm sure many of my posts are "silly" in some fashion, as I write whatever I'm thinking about at the moment, but they are all in good faith. Not so with "Babysitter" and "I charge for lessons" and "ignorant." Harry says I misinterpreted your intent? Okay, good enough.

I hope we do get to play together someday, and I guess my frustrated rant stuck with you, which is fine because if we do get to work together I'd love to hear you "bring it."

Yeah, I agree with Harrison's interpretation. I'm not going to remove this b/c I think there was a bit of misunderstanding.... feel free to edit your alls posts given that... but yes please, Dana asked a very reasonable question.

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 11:49 am Hall Crook has been contemporary his whole life.

Hal has put many incredible recordings on his youtube channel including what i consider his magnum opus "Only Human".
He's not a household name but he is really quite influential, not just in the trombone scene. In addition to proteges like Eliot Mason he taught Branford Marsalis, Mark Turner, Esperanza Spalding, and many others.

For a minute there it was like the old days on the forum.

jacobgarchik wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:56 pm just as an aside, it is fascinating to watch videos of people playing, but if i want to check them out i try and find a studio recording or at least an official release rather than youtube. Sometimes youtube is not flattering and often not even put up with permission of the musician. Especially because jazz trombone doesn't record well with room mics or iphones!

This! Very important thing to keep in mind. Just speaking of my case but I find some of my best playing (at least in my own opinion) to be on some YouTube stuff that is either not linked to my name (studio recordings) or that isn't by far in the top results. My own debut release is still sitting on the shelf and waiting for a release in the upcoming year too. So there's nothing to find there atm too. And I'm pretty sure this is the case for many young players in the scene out there. Releasing an album is quite expensive if you want to work on earning some prestige with it and not just do a selfmade release. The latter is a fair option too tho of course.

tbdana wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:31 pm I have a question about younger/contemporary jazz trombonists. Since I'm old, and since I took decades off without even listening to music, I haven't followed the trends. Can someone explain what they think are the traits of younger, more contemporary jazz players? In my extremely limited exposure, I've noticed they tend to play louder and more aggressively than my contemporaries, and aren't laser focused on clean technique. I have no idea if that's a general trend or reflects only my limited exposure. What do you consider the character of modern players, as opposed to, say, my generation? And who were their models, who was influential to them growing up?

My generation, for the record, is the Iles, Martin, McChesney generation, and we grew up with JJ Johnson, Frank Rosolino, Carl Fontana, Wayne Henderson, Urbie Green, et al. as our models.

I'm just looking to educate myself here. I'm not looking for an agenda or judgment about which generation is preferable. Just trying to catch up after 30 years off. And as I come back from the dead, maybe I can pick up some pointers about how to sound more modern or contemporary.

Totally valid question! And from my experience there is no common sense reply to that. From my experience (and take this with a grain of salt as I'm still fairly young too) it really depends on the individual player. I have colleagues in the same age (around their 30s) who listened to JJ Johnson only, some listened to Carl Fontana only. I've always been very open-minded in listening and always had different phases/loopholes where I really did a deep dive into the work of one particular artist for months or years. That started with Nils Wogram, developed into Carl Fontana then changed to JJ, then to Albert Mangelsdorff then to Frank Rosolino then to Slide Hampton then to Hal Crook and so on and so on....

My students at the university of arts in Hanover tend to be more in contact with music that is made nowadays. I feel like many are huge Marshall Gilkes fans. Some really dig Michael Dease or Andy Martin. Some enjoy the players of WDR Bigband. I always try to guide them to listen to the players that influenced those guys to get to the source and roots of the music/style. I personally find it important to know about the roots and where stuff comes from that players nowadays play or where they habd built their foundation on to develop something new.

And I've also seen a lot of influences (also with myself) from non-trombone players which is nice too because it leads away from the horn-specific stuff that is easy and nice to play (eg. like some of the Fontana stuff) and creates a different sound.

Hope that can be a bit of help for your question.

EriKon wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 3:47 pmI always try to guide them to listen to the players that influenced those guys to get to the source and roots of the music/style. I personally find it important to know about the roots and where stuff comes from that players nowadays play or where they had built their foundation on to develop something new.

great approach

I steer the students to the old stuff. I tell them if they are going to study someone intensely it has to be someone they hold in the highest regard, not just someone they like a little bit.

when i was young i didn't like any contemporary trombone players. Didn't like much modern jazz on most instruments.

I guess I mellowed.

GGJazz wrote: ↑Fri Dec 06, 2024 12:46 pm Hello again.

Hi Dana.
I think that the follow can be more representative about Jon' playing :

Straight no Chaser (trombone solo)


Ragards again
Giancarlo

Is he Eliot Mason influenced? Doesn't work for me. Kind of a blah blah sound, which I guess some people want. I'd rather hear sparkling rhythm, which he could apply to some of his impressive lines to good effect. I think he "steps outside" in unhelpful ways, but he gets back in, so I guess he really hears that stuff. Needs more variety, articulation, rhythm, dynamics/accenting. He does employ useful tension, as long as he stays inside. Maybe this style is from the schools? Is this how the profs now play? I can't help but think it's almost divorced from a lot of the tradition. Maybe this comes out of sax style?

Everyone can be a critic but not everyone can play

There's "what you play"
And "how you play it"
Not very many players put them both together well for my taste.

To use an older example, Jimmy Knepper. Great stuff but I could never get past how sloppy he sounded.

I would recommend “pussy cat dues” from Mingus ah um, absolutely exquisite execution on that. Perhaps pre-Mingus fist fight.

I’m ok with people of all abilities critiquing. I don’t subscribe to the idea that a critic has to be a player.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 5:29 am Is this how the profs now play?

lol

but again please check out his album, not a youtube video of a jam session; jon says on the video its from his freshman year of college! with a error ridden transcription which looks like it's done by a high school sophomore...

The Mingus recording with Knepper:
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."

Hello.

About Jon Hatamiya' video , also if it was recorded many years ago , it already show that Jon is a very good musician and player , in my opinion . Don' t care about the trancription ...! I put this video because , personally , I like his solo !

Anyway , you can give a look at Jon ' own YouTube channel ; for sure he uploaded stuff that he thinks sound good...

Regards
Giancarlo

Doug Elliott wrote: ↑Sun Dec 08, 2024 9:50 am The Mingus recording with Knepper:
It's been a few decades since I listened to that. Sorry for being so picky but that's not my idea of "absolutely exquisite execution." He definitely plays great ideas in his soloing - but his ensemble playing with the other horns is what I describe as "only trombone players get away with playing that way."

I guess to me it sounds like very beautifully rendered swing era technique applied to charlie parker vocab, untouched by the influence of J.J. johnson-style articulation - sort of the technical toolbox of Teagarden and bill harris and dicky wells but updated to incorporate 50s modernity...but it's definitely jazz technique, lovely fuzzy soft tonguing, fluid slide movements to put legato above perfect intonation, not the sort of thing you would be doing in an orchestra. probably an "Ab in first" type player to be sure! (i love Ab in first)

I totally get the impulse to struggle with listening to players with technical issues...I have a pretty wide latitude for this sort of thing, which is why I love Miles at the plugged nickel or late coltrane at his most searching, precision be damned phases.

but again, back to the topic at hand, there are plenty of forward thinking young players who do have a very exacting technique, i don't think it's a generational thing.

plus I always tell students, technique can mean many things...there is mastery of improvisational technique as well as mastery of instrumental facility.

There's a fellow in Kansas City, Brian Scarborough, who probably won't be widely known like active coastal players. But don't underrate the Kansas City music scene. He's a pleasure to hear and a nice guy.

I first heard Brian when he was in middle school and still learning to play basic stuff, but you could tell he was gifted and he built himself out from there. Having seen that repeated several times is one the joys of music for me.