TromboneChat

I am returning to playing after a 40 year break. All those years ago I had started learning tenor clef, but alas those memories did not make it through my hiatus. Anyway, I wasn't worried about it until today when I browsing around for some tunes, I noticed some in tenor clef. Not many, but enough to make me wonder how big a deal is it?

For the upper registers it seems ideal - my old eyes would be happy to not have to figure out so many ledger lines, but my old brain has other things to worry about.

I am curious what the modern experience is - is tenor clef a novelty or critical for certain genres? Academic or practical?

Thanks!

Very practical, imo.

In brass bands I don't think I've seen tenor in a piece less than 40 years old!
Concert bands have tenor pop up every now & then, even in new music. Normally not a whole piece, just a section.
Big bands also get it now & then.
Pit bands/ orchestras it is quite common.
Don't know about orchestras, most of my experience is on bass, but is quite common in older pieces.

Pezza wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2025 6:28 pm Don't know about orchestras, most of my experience is on bass, but is quite common in older pieces.

I would say that tenor clef is a must for someone playing first or second trombone in an orchestra. If you're playing first, alto is also very useful.

I mean, you can use the basic skill of tenor clef reading to read Bb Treble clef…. So I’d say it is really a necessity if you want to do anything other than play in low skill community groups reading off a page.

Cheers,
Andy

Depends on the repertoire you want to play. But if you do any orchestral or classical solo repertoire on tenor trombone, you'll see it very regularly. In some contexts you'll even see it more often than bass clef.

I use tenor clef to read Bb treble parts, alto clef to fake harmony parts, and mezzo-soprano clef to read french horn parts, far more than I actually see parts written in those clefs. And of course treble clef. It's extremely useful to be proficient in more than bass clef. It helps a lot to start when you're young and learn it like a language. But it's not that hard later, if you just learn to recognize two or three notes each day. Pretty soon you know enough to get by.

I prefer tenor clef unless the chart is jazz or very low. Tenor clef comes up nearly every performance.

Alto clef is the one I think ... Meh ... Do we really need to use that one too?

Tenor clef should be required for all trombone players. You look silly if you show up somewhere and can't read tenor. It's a basic skill, easy to obtain and absolutely essential from time to time.

I play with a pro who can't or wont read clefs, and its a real drag when you can't play something because of one guy. Plus he always shows up with a straight horn so he can't play low parts. Don't be that guy.

Just learn it. Lots of us did it in high school, so its not hard.

Tenor clef fits the tessitura (how's that for a $5 word?) of the tenor trombone better than bass clef. It is used regularly in orchestra parts. As has been mentioned it's also a great way to read transposed treble parts like for trumpet, clarinet, or tenor saxophone.

If your goal is finding lots of popular music to play, I'd also suggest learning to read treble clef "down an octave" where is played

Note that the relationship of treble and bass clefs (particularly in piano music) is that is (Middle C). Some parts I've seen have some high notes written in embedded treble clef -- something much more common in cello music. In the bass clef 1st trombone part of Brahms' "Academic Festival Overture" there is a high A and a high C both written in treble clef inside a normal bass clef part.

For that matter, the relationship of all the common trombone clefs is is is is

Thanks for all the info! I will definitely incorporate re-learning it as I get back into playing!

There are a few etude books around that help you "ease into" tenor clef. They have the etude printed once in bass clef, and repeated in tenor.

These days, you could use software to do the same thing, taking any bass clef music as a source.

For learning clefs:

Back in the Bad Old Days we used to use a book by Blazhevich called Clef Studies (now available for free in IMSLP as "School for Trombone". These included a lot of clef switches in the middle of exercises. Good practice, but not for beginners.

Simone Mantia "The Trombone Virtuoso" (also available for free on IMSLP) has a bunch of much simpler exercises in tenor, alto, and transposed treble clef. Easier to deal with. After you are sorta comfortable with these exercises you would be ready for Blazhevich, although Blazhevich does not include transposed treble.

Reginald Fink wrote two books, "Introducing the Tenor Clef" and "Introducing the Alto Clef".

I understand Brad Edwards has written a couple of similar books that are about 20 years newer than Fink's.

Tenor clef is very usefull, especially in solo, synfonic, chamber and concert band.

The trick on learning new clefs is to let your visual brain learn it subconciously.

Find easy and simple tunes, which you play well in bass clef, play them from bass clef until you almost can play them by heart.

Then do the pen and paper work and write them out in treble clef. Yes, do it yourself, cause this way you have to think.

Then play them again by heart, but look at the trble clef notes. Do that many times, and you brain will connect the dots, from what you play to what you read.

Do it again next day with a new tune. And again. After two weeks, your brain has figured it out for you,, it was fun and easy

Then you just can read and play treble clef without problems.

Same trick for alto, or any transposition you want to master.

Its quite easy to learn this way. ..

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 7:18 am ...

Reginald Fink wrote two books, "Introducing the Tenor Clef" and "Introducing the Alto Clef".

...

I still have the Fink book from the early 80s when I was learning it the first time. I'll start there and see what happens. Thanks!

Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

It's not a shibboleth and you don't necessarily need to go to music school to read it.

I personally don't like reading parts with 6 or 7 ledger lines (unlike most flute platers). Even 4 can be too many. Up or down.

Learning other clefs can be a good way to transpose. I was taught this by a guy who played in one of the TV orchestras where they would get a guest who couldn't sing in the key of the arrangement so they had to transpose "on the fly". Using a clef to read the part in a different key can make things easier. I actually "sorta" taught myself 7 clefs that gave me all the transposition I would need.

While people who write for Jazz or Stage Bands seem to prefer bass clef for trombones, people writing for other ensembles do use tenor clef. And alto clef. And transposing treble clef. And even sometimes native treble clef.

I didn’t go to music school. I like tenor clef. I’d say the majority of classical pieces have at least some tenor clef in them. And if you ever want to play first trombone in a symphony orchestra you need to read alto clef as well.

In addition to the Fink books Bruce mentioned, Brad Edwards has a book on reading tenor and alto clefs: https://www.hornbonepress.com/instrumen ... one/#books

Ralph Sauer has a book of intermediate clef studies through Cherry Music:
https://cherryclassics.com/collections/ ... ducts/2649

Alto, tenor, and even mezzo soprano clef have their uses. In orchestras, reading alto and tenor clefs is assumed. If you want to play symphony parts, it’s just another skill to learn, like legato or double-tonguing. Some Russian pieces write the bass trombone part in alto clef, so unless you want to transpose and write out a new part, it’s just as much work to learn to read alto clef.

It’s rare to see tenor clef in concert band parts, but stranger things have happened.

For most trombonists, it’s easier to transpose by replacing a clef than transposing by interval. We can read Eb parts already: just think bass clef and add 3 flats. Bb parts are easy if you can read tenor clef. You just need to add two flats, and watch your F’s and B’s. I use mezzo soprano clef to read Horn (in F) parts—just add 1 flat.

Practically, though, if all you want to do is play jazz, or commercial, or play in a concert band, you don’t need to learn it. Is it fun to learn? Maybe, maybe not—it depends on whether you like to learn new skills like this. One of the biggest benefits: you have a huge amount of literature you can play when you read tenor clef.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

(Whispers)
There should be MORE tenor clef used rather than using a gallon of ink on ledger lines that are harder to read.

I learned tenor clef a good 6 years before I was anywhere near a music school, and I never majored in music anyway. It is a remarkable handy skill that has applications beyond any snobbery and orchestral literature.

If you want to consider ‘C’ clefs dinosaurs… chicken are dinosaurs and hardly obsolete. Very versatile, even.

Cheers
Andy

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

Well, the reality is that whether or not you went to music school, you will encounter tenor (and alto) clef in a variety of repertoire as a trombonist. And whether or not you went to music school, you most likely will sooner or later encounter a situation where you need to transpose at sight, where knowing your clefs will come in very handy. Whether it should be used by copyists in big band parts is neither here nor there. Aknowledging that fluency in clefs can be a very useful skill (and for many of us, an absolutely essential one) is not snobbism. It's just fact.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

Whether tenor clef "should" be used or not is above my pay grade. All I can say is that it has been used for a couple hundred years anyway. Ignoring it means you throw away a lot of opportunities. Cello and bassoon music also use tenor clef. I never figured out why jazz ignores it, with all of the ledger lines in first parts. I was reading it before I was even in high school. I agree non-transposed treble is also something you should be able to read, and flipping octaves is something everyone should be able to do on sight. That's what the bass has to do, even in a jazz band, and it uses a special clef.

If it were up to me, tenor clef would be the main clef for the tenor trombone (including beginners) all of the time. High B flat is 2 ledger lines above the staff - low f is 2 ledger lines below it. It fits the standard range of the instrument better than bass clef.

If you play in an orchestra, it is the clef you see the most, at least in the classical repertoire. In pops shows - less so. Many major solo pieces have large sections in tenor clef. People complaining about tenor clef - suck it up and learn it! It's also useful for covering trumpet, tenor sax, treble clef baritone parts. The opera we're playing this week at work has 7 different transpositions in the trumpet and horn parts - we have it easy with 3 clefs (I don't include treble, because I almost never see it unless it's an arrangement by someone that isn't aware of the C clefs - the arrangements usually show off their ignorance in other ways).

The great Rob McConnell, leader of the Boss Brass used tenor clef in some of his big band charts. All of his players read tenor, and he hated the multiple ledger lines too. I've always thought that was a good idea, but unfortunately, you can't fight tradition.

Jim Scott

Chord sheet reading. Just get the note, not the octave, not eighth, quarter, half, so I get to choose high or low or middle. Beats all the staff lines! Tuba music is most challenging for me, have actually had tuba music 4 times in the last 25 years. Trumpet music I’ve had enough experience higher notes haven’t been a problem.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:19 am This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

I won't presume to judge baileyman (or his politics). But I am sure glad that I learned tenor clef way back in 8th or 9th grade (1950s!). I use it all the time now (mostly - but not exclusively - for "classical" music) and am very comfortable with it. It was still there in my head even after a ~25-year layoff! As Jim Scott noted, tenor clef falls really nicely on the page for trombone music.

Unfortunately, I quit music lessons before I learned alto clef (which would occasionally be useful), so struggle with that, and I sure wish that I were more comfortable with treble clef. We should all be willing to open our brains - and use them.

Honestly, one of the best things for my chop’s (not my brain, my chops) lately has been working on sight reading in treble and mezzo soprano clef (definitely not my comfort zone). Tenor clef on alto too.

If you find tenor clef challenging, working on it might have more benefits than just learning to read a new clef.

This concludes my transmission from the ivory tower of classical music school.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:19 am

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.

I had that same impression

Firstly, I know baileyman fairly well. He has played with me in several "senior dance bands" (we play Stocks from the 1930s through the 1960s for dances at Senior Centers). He's a good player, but focused on the dance band / big band / stage band literature which generally sits in bass clef.

I became a convert when my first teacher, a trumpet player in one of the television studio bands, showed me how to transpose using the clefs. This was as a lower classman in High School. I never went to conservatory, deciding to pursue Engineering instead (Engineers mostly eat better than professional musicians). I believe in reading all the clefs and the transposed treble. Only transposed clef I haven't had much success with is Db (piccolo).

Tenor clef would be the best choice if it was the ONLY clef, but otherwise I think it's just worse than bass or alto. Bass and alto is the perfect two-clef pair, IMO. The C in the bass clef is easily readable at one ledger line below the alto clef, and there is a ton of trombone rep that never goes below that note. And if it does, you can use bass clef. Those Russians got it right.

That said, I see bass and tenor on my stand often, and alto occasionally. For my own recordings I use bass, tenor, alto, treble, and sometimes mezzo-soprano in my trombone parts.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?"

I never went to music school. I picked up tenor clef in like a week in middle school; it's not that hard and it comes with some convenient side effects for transpositions and covering parts for other instruments.

Anyways, tenor clef has in fact been in common use for trombone parts for a long time and I don't think it's particularly snobbish to believe that part of being a competent musician is the ability to read music written for your own primary instrument.

spencercarran wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 4:02 pm I picked up tenor clef in like a week in middle school

I picked up tenor clef very quickly in high school. But I've been struggling with alto clef for decades. Learning something with an adult brain is VERY different.

I had to play in tenor clef in high school; as I remember it was for pit orchestra. I could double (poorly) on trumpet, so in my mind I just played my trombone in trumpet mode, treating it as Bb treble clef.
Being able to read Bb treble clef is still pretty handy, and tenor clef is equivalent enough to get you there.

Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott

I think the comparison is actually quite good. Tenor clef does fit the trombone better than bass clef. It seems to have fallen out of favor because the people creating trombone parts were more comfortable with bass clef and like VHS taking over the videocassette format, bass clef took over the trombone in most uses.

The same happened to C clefs for singers. Soprano, alto and tenor clef make a whole lot of sense for a lot of choral music, yet they were replaced by treble clef across the board.

Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line).

I didnt go to music school so I bow to the superior knowledge of those who know better than me (and that is not displaying any attitude thats acknowledgement of a fact!). I grew up in the brass band world where only 1 clef exists for the tenor player that of course is treble. You can go your whole life and repetoire without ever using another clef or being challenged to do so. I know many many players who do and have done just that. I've spent the last 50 years playing mainly bass so the bass clef is actually where I am at home. I have on rare occassions come across tenor clef when playing tenor trombone in a pit orchestra. When that has happened I do what Doug Elliot does only in reverse I use the treble clef to transpose to tenor.

That all said and with my lack of technical knowledge (I have a degree in Geography) so I can authoritively say the 'geography' of the tenor clef is the most logical of all clefs for the tenor trombone. I cant be counting how many leger lines that is to that note way up there!... so speaketh a bass trombone player!!

Kindest... Doug

And to illustrate the truth of my opening statement in my previous post - when Maximillian wrote "Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line)" I didnt even know there was a sub-bass clef! Such a sheltered life I have led. Maximillian next time I'm racing up the A1 passing Bremen and thinking about 'The Musicians of Bremen' I'll book a lesson, not on Baroque trombone but on clefs!!... Best Doug

I'm heading off to a Paleobones rehearsal today, where I will be faced with bass, tenor, and alto clefs. Darn, now I'm really wishing I'd gone to music school! OTOH, I learned all those clefs without music school, so...

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 9:41 pm Probably way off topic, but those of us that were around when Betamax was an option for video recording remember that it was actually a superior format to VHS. It was pushed aside because some large companies had already committed to VHS. Maybe it is relevant?

Jim Scott

I don't know if this is true, but I remember hearing that VHS won the battle with Betamax because at the time most pornography was available on VHS only, and that was enough to tip the scales. Not sure what the metaphor is for tenor clef on that, but it's bound to be an obscene one...

I'd love to see more tenor (or alto) clef in big band charts. Or treble clef. Or 8va markings. It's no fun sightreading a running line when it's all on 4/5 ledger lines.

It's a very dull way to practice, but there are websites that will generate random sheet music, with the ability to specify exactly what notes you want included. That way you can start off with 2 or 3 notes and spend as long as it takes for them to get really familiar, then expand from there. I've used that approach to get up to speed on doubles and it works quite well.

I will admit to practicing real music on occasion, to keep the mind and chops functional. Usual practice horn is my trumpet, I’ll use it for bass or treble clef stuff. In my iPad music files, I do have tenor clef basics I mess around with on occasion. A majority of my playing is chord sheets for the service, no matter which of my 5 horns, and the appropriate for the horn music for ensembles. Includes trumpet, French horn, trombone, euph, and tuba. Have never needed tenor clef for any (of my very few) outside the church playing times, but one never knows what the future holds. I’ve always held that as long as I’m living, I should be learning. Or as my dad used to say, using my head for something other than a hat rack.

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

Last month I played the National Tour of MJ The Musical. Bass clef/tenor clef/alto clef. Does show up when you least expect it.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 2:13 am Also, early on, a lot of trombone parts were even in baritone clef (F on the 3rd line), and bass trombone parts in sub-bass clef (F on the 5th line).

Yes, mostly Renaissance and early Barok music in faksimile prints. I have played many of these during my younger years, and one gets pretty fast good at it. Also medical music writen only with four lines in the system.

Think of it as infiniely many lines invisible on which notes to play are attached, and the placement of a C or F clef indicates which lines of these are visible.

Simple example, piano sheet music has commonly 11visible lines, of which 5 are right hand in violin clef, 5 in left hand F bass clef, and 1 is the ledger line between both systems.

The piano ledger line between systems is actually the same C as the C alto or tenor clef indicates, so the 5 lines from an alto clef with C on the middle line are actually the 2 lowest right hand lInes, the ledger line, and the highest 2 left hand lines.

Now, the meaning of the notes in the infinite line system does not change, but which bunch of lines you see, so to speak, the window you see through, does change in the differnt clef placements.

Practice will make it fluent. ..

marccromme wrote: ↑Tue Feb 04, 2025 3:19 pm
Think of it as infiniely many lines invisible on which notes to play are attached, and the placement of a C or F clef indicates which lines of these are visible.

(...)

Now, the meaning of the notes in the infinite line system does not change, but which bunch of lines you see, so to speak, the window you see through, does change in the differnt clef placements.

That is exactly how I think of it! Although I also do realise that this way of thinking does not work for everyone.

Finetales wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 3:19 pm Tenor clef would be the best choice if it was the ONLY clef, but otherwise I think it's just worse than bass or alto. Bass and alto is the perfect two-clef pair, IMO.

I would vote for concert pitch treble and bass clef, like the piano players use. I never need to venture above that top line F, and rarely below the bass clef G. (If you wrote v.a.b., then never below the bass clef.) No need to add or subtract flats and sharps either, and if you have perfect pitch the note you're playing is the note you see.

But I think it depends a lot on how the individual brain works. Clefs don't seem hard to me. As an engineer, it's just a math transformation. For some people they make no sense, and will never make any sense. And I think we underestimate how complicated the process is between seeing ink on a page and producing a tone. There are a lot of intermediate steps.

tbdana wrote: ↑Mon Feb 03, 2025 10:19 am

baileyman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2025 2:07 pm Tenor clef is a shibboleth that means, "I went to music school, what's your problem?" It's a dinosaur that should've died a long time ago except for classically oriented things. (Listen for that attitude to show up...) It's really really out of place in big band where it's showing up more and more, perhaps because software will do it for you. And there are now lots of young people who majored in trombone (why?) who work outside of music but play and read great in amateur and semi-pro bands. So now we're stuck. The cursed clef is here to stay.

Meanwhile, we had a perfectly good alternative in treble, and if you want to read and play tunes, there ain't nuttin' else.

This post has been low key bugging me. It seems to adopt the derision and rejection of knowledge and expertise that is so unfortunately running rampant in the United States right now.

It seems to say, "I can't read tenor clef, so I'm just going to insult the people who know more than I do, and call them elitists. And while I display this really crappy attitude for you, I'm going to project a crappy attitude onto anyone who disagrees with me. As part of that, I'm going to characterize people who attend music school as out-of-touch, snobby elites, and take a victory lap like a pigeon that knocks the chess pieces off the board."

My goodness, if that's an accurate read, that attitude sucks.

Harsh, perhaps, but am I wrong? Baileyman, please tell me I've misjudged your post and explain what you really meant.

My own understanding of what I wrote is equivalent to, "It's an historical error to migrate tenor into commercial forms, but the deed is done."

You could have just written that rather than add all the other commentary.

One historical advantage of the tenor clef, as remarked on by Praetorius, was that bass trombones were typically pitched a fifth lower than the tenor (tenor in A, bass in D), just as their respective clefs are also a fifth apart. Therefore a tenor player not familiar with positions in D could easily pick up a bass, imagine a C clef (with one flat removed or sharp added) instead of the bass part's F clef, and use their usual tenor positions.

LeTromboniste wrote: ↑Wed Feb 05, 2025 4:12 pm One historical advantage of the tenor clef, as remarked on by Praetorius, was that bass trombones were typically pitched a fifth lower than the tenor (tenor in A, bass in D), just as their respective clefs are also a fifth apart. Therefore a tenor player not familiar with positions in D could easily pick up a bass, imagine a C clef (with one flat removed or sharp added) instead of the bass part's F clef, and use their usual tenor positions.

That makes sense, sort of, but I think it makes a big assumption.

For some people it's easy to do a mental hack like that, imagining a clef and using tenor positions. I think he assumed everyone's brain worked like his. For me that would be impossible.

When I get a Tenor Sax part or a Trumpet part put in front of me, I'm glad I learned Tenor cleff. That's what sent me back to Blazevich as an adult pro player. Being comfortable reading a Bb treble part is hugely valuable.