TromboneChat

How come the trombone chorale in Brahms's first symphony sounds a little "out of place", whereas, when it appears later fully orchestrated in the climax, it is absolutely inevitable?

That's a question you would have to ask Brahms.

It's kind of odd that you have to sit out 3 ½ movements of beautiful music and then play this thing soli. Talk about exposed entrances on cold horns!

It seems like it’s out of place because it is. It’s like a breath of fresh air. Like when you walk outside the first time after being cooped up when you’re sick or snowed in, or when you walk outside during a party where there’s so much noise and alcohol and smoke that you feel dazed until—aaahhh!!—and you can breathe again.

To my mind, that passage is radical, almost unlike anything done before. There are few places in the symphonic literature where a theme is introduced by the trombones playing a chorale.*

I know some people don’t like or understand Brahms. They think he’s boring, or stodgy, or… whatever. Not so. In form and harmony, he’s pretty ahead of his time.


*If you consider Heinrich Schütz’s Symphoniæ Sacræ to be part of the symphonic literature, then Schütz beat Brahms to it by about 300 years. Of course, Brahms knew of and drew some inspiration from Schütz.

Don't underestimate Brahms. There isn't a note out of place.

Kbiggs wrote: ↑Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:32 am It seems like it’s out of place because it is.
To my mind, that passage is radical, almost unlike anything done before. There are few places in the symphonic literature where a theme is introduced by the trombones playing a chorale.*

Even more radical is how Brahms makes it inevitable the second time around when fully orchestrated!

I read that Brahms didn't like trombones, so I lke to think he doesn't use us unless we are the only choice for what he wants to do. In the 1st, we sit through all these loud, emotional passages that just cry out for trombones but we aren't crucial, so we sit. Then, when nothing else can give him what he wants, he writes us the most beautiful chorale in our repertoire.

drintoul wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:49 am I read that Brahms didn't like trombones ...

Is this true? Interesting.
What's the back story?

drintoul wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:49 am I read that Brahms didn't like trombones, so I lke to think he doesn't use us unless we are the only choice for what he wants to do. In the 1st, we sit through all these loud, emotional passages that just cry out for trombones but we aren't crucial, so we sit. Then, when nothing else can give him what he wants, he writes us the most beautiful chorale in our repertoire.

Where did you read that? I very strongly doubt that.

Trombones playing very sparingly is not a Brahms thing, it's just common in the majority of 19th century music, with relatively few exceptions. Even the composers who we most associate with heavy trombone writing actually give us tons of rests. Berlioz writes in his treatise that the trombone has such a special sound and dramatic power that using it often and to play trivial stuff instead of reserving it for the most epic and cataclysmic moments is "ruining the past, present and future of Art".

I don't know of any statements by Brahms expressing any distaste for the trombone. His writing for the instrument is first rate, with beautiful passages in all of the symphonies, and in some overtures as well. He actually wrote quite a bit in the 2nd Symphony for trombones and a fair amount in the 3rd. In the 1st and 4th symphonies, he follows the example of Beethoven who introduced the use of trombones in a symphony, and left them for the last movement. The association of trombones to church music created a tradition of saving them for special moments in those Romantic symphonies and the use of chorales in many of those symphonies.

Jim Scott

CalgaryTbone wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 5:13 pm The association of trombones to church music created a tradition of saving them for special moments in those Romantic symphonies and the use of chorales in many of those symphonies.

I think there's even something somewhat beyond the religious associations (although that definitely played a big part). Something about the nature of the sound itself of a group of trombones playing together as a unit, makes it particularly appropriate for certain situations. It's very good at evoking solemnity, grandeur, death, and other such themes that have a certain gravitas to them. It's also not particularly good at being light or trivially cheerful.

That's really particularly true of the instrument when used as a section or group, or generally exposed. The instrument looses that weight when it's mixed in with others. Even with baroque trombones. You get them mixed together with voices and violins and what not, or you put one in a quartet with 3 other different instruments, you don't get that same gravitas. It's beautiful, but it doesn't have that special thing. But you write a piece for solo voice and 4 trombones, and there it is, inevitable. And they tend to use that particularly when the gravitas fits the text. In Mozart's Requiem, the collar parte writing doesn't give any special effect beyond the extra colour and support to the voices (which was just typical for the time). But you get to these couple short obligato section moments in the Introit and Lachrymosa, and there it is again, that momentous sense of fate. So it's only natural that romantic composers writing for three trombones as a section would recognise that very particular effect and use it. And in that kind of symphonic writing, that effect works at its best when you use it somewhat sparingly, and when you don't spoil it by using the trombone sound as a coulour everywhere else.

drintoul wrote: ↑Fri Feb 28, 2025 7:49 am I read that Brahms didn't like trombones, so I lke to think he doesn't use us unless we are the only choice for what he wants to do. In the 1st, we sit through all these loud, emotional passages that just cry out for trombones but we aren't crucial, so we sit. Then, when nothing else can give him what he wants, he writes us the most beautiful chorale in our repertoire.

Did you hear this around the water cooler at work or read it on the interweb? I think you need to think about composition during that time before you can truly understand this.

BGuttman wrote: ↑Sun Feb 09, 2025 1:14 pm That's a question you would have to ask Brahms.

It's kind of odd that you have to sit out 3 ½ movements of beautiful music and then play this thing soli. Talk about exposed entrances on cold horns!

Definitely an exposed entrance, but not totally cold - Brahms was kind enough to include a phrase of soft trombone chords to get them warmed up before the big moment.

I love the Brahms Symphonies. He used a lot of time to compose them and I believe they are exceptional well done down to every small details. And the trombone parts are just some of the most delicate ever done. I have only played symphony 1 and 2. That was in the eighties so I'm of course no expert.

But I remember they was a challenge to play. The D major in the end of second symphony is exceptional, but even some professjonal orchestras make it out of tune. It's different from Bruckner, and later Mahler. But when playing I got a feeling Brahms knew exactly how to write for all instruments.

I think Beethoven wasn't that sure how to write. Some elements from Mozart like doubling the choir and strengthen the high points. No soft chorale with trombones alone. But of course he let the trombones in to the symphonies and we own him a big thanks! Bruckner did the soft chorale with trombone. Same as Schubert and Schumann, very delicate and thoughtful writing for the trombone. But still Bruckner wasn't sure I think. More like he wrote for the organ. And he spread out the chorale to the hole brass group. Like you pull it out on the big church organ.

Mahler did see more potensial with our trombone, not only with the third symphony. Then Tsjajkovskij, Sjostakovitsj.....

Even Edvard Grieg has some elements of nice trombone moments. Grieg A-moll piano concerto has some wonderful soft trombone chorales. Sigurd Jorsalfar, Op. 56 "Marche d’hommage" It has some exposed moment's for us bass trombone players!

Ohh, it sounds like I'm an experienced symphony player, I'm not at all. And I'm not good in history either so please fill in or correct me!

Leif