Best Options for a 2nd Jazz Trombone

[BobOD]

Hello all, new to the chat and curious to tap into your expertise.

So, I play in a horn band that does classic stuff like Chicago, Tower of Power, Steely Dan, Blues Brothers, etc and I have been using my beloved King 3B Silver Sonic w/F attachment--which I've owned since the 1980s--as my sole horn. I had been thinking about getting a second horn anyway and when I had some work done on the 3B found out from the repairman that there are two long cracks in the slide that could go at anytime.

As a result, my hunt is getting more serious. So, the question is, what are my best options. The obvious choice is to get another 3B, but as a guitar player who owns (and enjoys) having lots of different guitars, I'm also thinking about something completely different.

Any and all thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[BGuttman]

1. Consider getting a new slide for the 3B.

2. Consider new slide tubes for the 3B.

3. Do you really need the F-attachment? If you do, your options may be fewer. If you don't need the F-attachment you could replace the 3B with a good student horn (the Yamaha 354 comes to mind), or a good used small bore. If you really need the F-attachment, you might have to go to a medium bore instrument like a Yamaha 640 or Bach 36B.

Note that options 1 and 2 will be much less expensive than replacing the 3B.

[Kingfan]

I vote for getting new slide tubes. If you love your 3B and still want another horn, an older nickel plated Tempo is a good choice for the money if you can find one.

[MrHCinDE]

I understood the OP to mean that a 2nd horn was already on their mind and is not a replacement for the 3B/F SS, and that likely the 3B will be getting repaired regardless.

I’d probably go for a straight horn as a 2nd horn, a Benge 170 or 2B+ would be neat as the slides are interchangeable with the 3B. Otherwise I’d go for something cheap and fun, the nickel tempo is a good shout, there are plenty of great vintage Holton, Olds and Reynolds also.

If the OP wants something larger which still feels like a 3B, there was a nice deal on a 3B+/F posted on here a couple of days ago (no connection to seller!).

[tbdana]

I'd stay with something in the .508 bore size if that's comfortable for you.

There's the Yamaha 897Z that you might like. Good horn. It's a .508 bore. I think the 891Z is also .508.

And I personally love my Bach 16M, which is a .509 bore.

You can always get another 3B, maybe without the F attachment, and one that's brass rather than silver, just to mix it up.

[BobOD]

Thanks all; appreciate the quick responses. To clarify, the cracks are on the outer slide and the repairman said they could be fine for years or could go quicker than that, but it raised the uncertainty that fueled my thoughts of getting a second horn anyway. To be honest, hadn't given much thought to just replacing the slide, but obviously that's an option.

Regardless, if I do get a second horn I would likely stick with the smaller .508 bore, I do need the F attachment to hit the low notes in many of the tunes we play and, thankfully, I'm at a point in my life where I don't have a limited budget. So, yes, lower cost or used options are certainly there, but I'm also open to some of the smaller boutique horns I've started to hear about here, the carbon fiber stuff or other good mainstream horns that would be fun and different to play.

Will check out some of the ones already mentioned and, again, appreciate all the ideas!

[BGuttman]

...
There's the Yamaha 897Z that you might like. Good horn. It's a .508 bore. I think the 891Z is also .508.

And I personally love my Bach 16M, which is a .509 bore.

You can always get another 3B, maybe without the F attachment, and one that's brass rather than silver, just to mix it up.

Just to clarify, Yamaha 697 and 897 are small bore (around 0.490"). Yamaha 691, 651, and 891 are 0.508",

[Matt K]

There’s a great Getzen for sale here that I thought pretty hard about picking up that would be right up your alley if the f attachment wasn’t a requirement.

I would also recommend replacement tubes though. There is also a. King 3BF+ for sale at a great price in the classifieds at the moment

[pfrancis]

...
There's the Yamaha 897Z that you might like. Good horn. It's a .508 bore. I think the 891Z is also .508.

And I personally love my Bach 16M, which is a .509 bore.

You can always get another 3B, maybe without the F attachment, and one that's brass rather than silver, just to mix it up.

Just to clarify, Yamaha 697 and 897 are small bore (around 0.490"). Yamaha 691, 651, and 891 are 0.508",

Yamaha 897Z is .484-.490”, I suspect 697 to be the same note size(s). Essentially Yamaha makes their take on a 2B and 3B but the numbering system Yamaha use flips which number refers to the larger instrument. 891>897 when referring to bores.

[Bach5G]

RonZ Garage often has interesting vintage small bore horns for not too much money.

http://www.youtube.com/@ronzgarage

[dcslideman]

Just to clarify, Yamaha 697 and 897 are small bore (around 0.490"). Yamaha 691, 651, and 891 are 0.508",

I think to clarify the clarification, the 651 is .500". The 697/897 and 691/891 sizes are correct.

[JohnL]

If you want to experiment with a different horn, that's cool - but I think you'll find that nothing else can do all the things a 3BF Silver Sonic can do. Whatever you decide on as far as a second horn, I'd suggest getting that slide fixed (new outer tubes) sooner rather than later. Best to do it before it becomes an emergency.

[tbonesullivan]

Personally, I'd just get another 3b, with a brass or rose brass bell. The SS horns definitely respond quite a bit differently, but they are also quite a bit easier to find.

I'm also pretty sure you can just swap the slides.

[Posaunus]

If I were in your position (being accustomed to a 0.508" bore King 3BF SS, needing an F-attachment, and somewhat limited in budget), I'd look for a gently used brass 3BF (much more common - and cheaper - than a 3BF SS). I have one that would be perfect for you - but I'm keeping it!

Good luck.

[nateaff]

If I were in your shoes I'd do one of 3 things:

1.) New tubes or a new slide is by far the easiest and cheapest option.

2.) If you've got the budget/patience/personality for a franken-bone project I would start with a Yamaha 646, which is a .525 horn that plays a little smaller than other .525 horns like a Bach.

You might find that that you like the slightly bigger size and opt to keep it as is OR order a .508 slide from Yamaha ($$$).

YSL 646s are super easy to find for super cheap and they're excellent, a thinner slide would obviously drive the cost way up.

3.) ask me about my 3B-F that's for sale for the right price!

[marccromme]

Yamaha 356 G or R comes to mind. Dual bore small to medium, With an ecxellent F valve, usually cheap used and quite underrated, , but play very well.

[mwpfoot]

It's brought up already but I made the switch from a straight King 3bss to Yamaha 891z in this exact space: rock w horns. 891z is Yamaha's latest take what you've got. Their 691z is the older version that may be cheaper, but used.

It's not like these Yamaha horns are super exciting innovations, they are just well made off-the-shelf derivatives of the tried and true classic bones. My King had some weird upper partial issues that the Yamaha does not. The Yamaha is fun to play. It mics and blasts well. It's pretty. Rec'd.

I like playing .522-.525 medium bore in a lot of contexts, but not here. More work for no audible gains in a highly amplified context. Our sets can be up to 3x 50 minutes with a LOT of playing in the charts. Efficiency is critical.

I like playing Bachs just fine in classical styles, but not here. I've tried 12, 16, and 36, and they are each lovely, and I just get tonally buried in rock unless everything is just right with monitoring (it never is). Big and round and broad and sonorous are disadvantages.

These are my feelings after hacking away at this for a long time, fwiw.

(pst. ditch the F-att it's too heavy and "i need a straight horn" is good excuse to buy buy buy)

[rmb796]

King 2b. Even a Tempo King 2b for rock bands. Cuts through quite well, but can
t make up for a deaf soundman.

[Finetales]

Regardless, if I do get a second horn I would likely stick with the smaller .508 bore, I do need the F attachment to hit the low notes in many of the tunes we play and, thankfully, I'm at a point in my life where I don't have a limited budget. So, yes, lower cost or used options are certainly there, but I'm also open to some of the smaller boutique horns I've started to hear about here, the carbon fiber stuff or other good mainstream horns that would be fun and different to play.

I'll offer some of the higher-budget options you have available, since you mentioned it.

The DaCarbo carbon fiber .508" trombone plays really great. I haven't tried the .508 with F, but I would assume that one would be great too. And of course, you wouldn't have to worry about it getting damaged on the gig.

You could custom-order a modular small bore from Rath or Shires with an F attachment, it's been done before. A friend of mine has a Shires small bore with F and it's excellent. For Rath you'd want to look at the R2 (.510"), for Shires you'd go for the MD+.

BAC will make you anything you want. I usually don't like BAC horns, but a friend of mine has a BAC dual bore .500-.508" with F attachment and it is fantastic.

M&W isn't usually known for their small bore trombones, but they make phenomenal instruments and I'm sure the small bores are no exception. I'm sure they'd do one with an F attachment if you asked.

You could also look to a well-regarded tech that does custom work, such as Scott Sweeney in North Carolina. He'll take any horn you give him (could be another 3BF, could be your existing 3BF SS, could be anything else in this thread), rebuild it better, and make it look really unique if you so desire. You could also send him (or any other similar tech/shop) a trombone without a valve and he can put one on for you. There are plenty of stock instruments in your desired size range that don't come with valves that you could get one added to - Yamaha 891Z, Getzen 3508R, Voigt JV-29, etc.

You have a lot of options! If I was in your shoes I would probably go with either a Rath R2F, M&W .508 with F, or sending a 3B to Scott Sweeney and having an Instrument Innovations rotor put on with a cool valve wrap. I will say though, I have played most of the instruments I listed (along with many other small bore trombones) and have yet to play anything that made me want to replace my 1970 King 3B.

[JTeagarden]

If you are looking to repair your existing horn, I might suggest Chuck Ward in Chardon, OH to do so: He at least used to have direct access to King parts from the Conn-Selmer plant in Eastlake, OH, which saved my bacon on at least one occasion when it came to a rebuild.