Vanessa Fralick's encounter with Peter Ellefson

[GabrielRice]

I'm surprised this has not been posted here yet. Vanessa is now a member of the Toronto Symphony, a fantastic trombonist and brave human.

https://katherineneedlemanoboist.substa ... irect=true

I can't sit on this information anymore. Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar need to be known so we can eradicate this type of behaviour from our industry.

In 2007, Peter Ellefson was a teacher at the Trombone Seminar where I was a 21 year old student. It was held at the University of New Mexico. At the time, and to this day, Pete was professor of trombone at Indiana University. I believe he was approximately 45 at that time. He sat down beside me on a couch at the final party, put his hand on my leg and then followed me to the bathroom when I tried to move away from him. I immediately left the party and nothing happened but he followed up with voicemails and emails where he tried to arrange to meet up with me alone in Chicago the following week, at a bar or even a hotel.

I was terrified that by rejecting him I risked damaging not only my grad school prospects but also my potential career in the orchestra world and responded politely and respectfully, acting flattered, while at the same time making it clear I was not interested in any sort of relationship.

I shared this story anonymously in a Facebook group last summer and oddly, shortly afterwards received an apology email from him – seventeen years later.

It is really scary to write this post but as he is still teaching and performing at major institutions in the USA, I write it so other young players and their teachers can be aware and on their guard.

The cringe-worthy correspondence can be seen by going to Katherine Needleman's Substack. This post is available without a paid subscription.


Speaking (inevitably) as a man who makes a significant portion of his living from teaching trombone, I can say that it was obvious as far back as 2007 that it is highly inappropriate to be drunk with students and completely unacceptable to behave like a creep to students - or to colleagues for that matter. It is now and it was then.

[sungfw]

It was posted earlier but was subsequently removed.

I read the post during the brief time it was up and wholeheartedly endorse the poster’s sentiments.

[elmsandr]

Looking back on my time as a student; my professor never allowed alcohol at any gathering. Not because he didn’t drink, though I’ve still never had a beer with him, but I’m reasonably certain it was a conscious decision to avoid the appearance of issues. Very smart. Sure, I generally agree that the music has to be good OR the pay has to be good OR the hang has to be good…. Two out of three and that is a gif you fight to keep….. but we need, especially as a brass culture, to make sure that we do not confuse drinking with a good hang.

Still processing how to make this better in my sphere of influence, but just a quick thought from me here,
Andy

[imsevimse]

Obviously you should never touch a student in a way that is awkward, and certanly not put your hand on her/his lap. If you want to be on the safe side then never socialize with your students.
You do not want to get emotional with them, because you do not need to, and you do not want them to have romantic feelings for you because it's not professional to have a relationship with a student anyway. If you notice a student is flirting with you then you should stop to teach that student, if possible. Avoid any trouble and it will not happen. That's my advice.

/Tom

[Slydeguy]

Post removed

[jacobgarchik]

This is so disturbing.
We have so many problems in the trombone world.

[Posaunus]

This is so disturbing.
We have so many problems in the trombone world.

Unfortunately, such behavior is not at all limited to the "trombone world.". In fact, it reaches to the Oval Office.

[Joebone]

Yup. I may not get this David Mamet quote quite riight, but something to the effect of "everything is about sex, except sex, which is about power." Mamet may not be a warm, cuddly type, but this line has stuck with me, over many years.

[jacobgarchik]

This is so disturbing.
We have so many problems in the trombone world.

Unfortunately, such behavior is not at all limited to the "trombone world.". In fact, it reaches to the Oval Office.

Ugh, truth!

[JohnL]

If you notice a student is flirting with you then you should stop to teach that student, if possible.

If a student is engaging in inappropriate behavior towards you, it may be a sign that another person has been, at the very least, grooming them. Report it.

[robcat2075]

Upon attaining middle age, men find a magic mirror in their home that makes them appear 3X more desirable than they really are, and a set of invisible ear plugs muffle the "no" they get when testing that 3X thing out.

So i presume this is all more common than the cases we hear about.

2007... was he already married to the recently fired/resigned Kennedy Center President Deborah Rutter, or is that a more recent thing?

Double plus no good choices made either way, of course.

[ngrinder]

Thank you for posting Gabe. This is disturbing and I applaud Vanessa for sharing her story.

[imsevimse]

As trombone players we do have high standards. There are a lot of people who can not behave. Where do we start?

/Tom

[officermayo]

Love all this trombone talk with no religion or politics.

[imsevimse]

Love all this trombone talk with no religion or politics.

Well, it's not politics this time it's sexism, but whatever, if you say it is politics ..

/Tom

[officermayo]

No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.

[imsevimse]

No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.

You said it!

/Tom

[Matt K]

There isn’t any point in lamenting national politics here. Whether we like it or not, we dont really have any material power over society at large. We do have some degree of ability to influence within our sphere though. Even if it weren’t off topic, my fear is that pointing things like this out makes it seem impossible to affect change, when change really is possible - especially at the local level.

I’m not in an academic position or a position in the union but I know a lot of you are. It seems to me that there is a desire to have this type of activity stop - largely this is the proverbial choir being preached to. Seems to me that there is some change that can be made to introduce zero tolerance policies, remove protections for this type of behavior that people here could push for and actually make a difference.

[LeTromboniste]

There isn’t any point in lamenting national politics here. Whether we like it or not, we dont really have any material power over society at large. We do have some degree of ability to influence within our sphere though. Even if it weren’t off topic, my fear is that pointing things like this out makes it seem impossible to affect change, when change really is possible - especially at the local level.

I’m not in an academic position or a position in the union but I know a lot of you are. It seems to me that there is a desire to have this type of activity stop - largely this is the proverbial choir being preached to. Seems to me that there is some change that can be made to introduce zero tolerance policies, remove protections for this type of behavior that people here could push for and actually make a difference.

Some good points. We do have some power to change things especially in our own sphere.

One thing I'll say is that lots of institutions have had "zero tolerance policies" for a long time. Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men. These policies don't do much when the priority is to protect the institution, not getting justice for victims. Or when the majority of people choose to look the other way and wash their hands of the issue.

I mean I'm sure there was a lot of unease among at least some portions of the NY Phil about having to play with the two rapists. But they were nonetheless embraced with open arms by many of their colleagues, who are influential figures of the brass scene. And for all the reaction in 2024 of orchestra members, where was that outrage and the support to the victims in the FOURTEEN years between the rape and the scandal erupting? That's quite the learning curve...

It's not about setting up guardrails, it's about breaking the silence and changing the culture.

[Matt K]

That’s what I’m suggesting though. If zero tolerance policies have tolerance they are effectively not zero tolerance policies. If instead the union were required to dump musicians with allegations against them, you’d start to see change pretty quickly I suspect.

Same goes with tenured positions in universities.

[GabrielRice]

That’s what I’m suggesting though. If zero tolerance policies have tolerance they are effectively not zero tolerance policies. If instead the union were required to dump musicians with allegations against them, you’d start to see change pretty quickly I suspect.

Same goes with tenured positions in universities.

I'm all for zero tolerance, but you need more than allegations to fire somebody. In this case there's a written record of coercion and grooming, but I get that in many cases it's one party's word against the other's. I wish I knew what to do about that.

[Matt K]

Maybe, although it would greatly incentivize people to not put themselves in positions where allegations could reasonably be made. Clearly a written record is not sufficient to prevent this from happening.

[GabrielRice]

Maybe, although it would greatly incentivize people to not put themselves in positions where allegations could reasonably be made. Clearly a written record is not sufficient to prevent this from happening.

But a private music lesson is almost by definition "a position where an allegation can reasonably be made." I know of schools that have instituted mandatory video recording of every lesson, but honestly I don't think that's the answer. In the Bill VerMeulen case, he had an open-door policy for lessons in which students could and regularly did observe each other's lessons, and that didn't stop him from being one of the absolutely worst offenders.

[Finetales]

Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men. These policies don't do much when the priority is to protect the institution, not getting justice for victims. Or when the majority of people choose to look the other way and wash their hands of the issue.

This is the last 15+ years in both the brass and jazz departments at Indiana University (where Pete taught) in a nutshell. There are a LOT of skeletons in that closet.

There aren't a ton of faculty in those departments with clean hands, and most are recent hires (Wayne Wallace, John Raymond, Brittany Lasch, etc.). Thankfully, those recent hires are wonderful people and have been changing things for the better.

[Bach5G]

MB wrote: “Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men.”

I was with you up until the third clause. However, if asked whether I thought such incidents would happen as often in female dominated institutions, I’d have to say no. Of course, my opinion is worthless without data. Without data, it’s just questionably informed bias. Or bad logic: it may be true that all attackers are white men but not true that all white men are attackers.

There have been tremendous efforts over the past decades to develop and implement appropriate policies. What is the appropriate standard of proof, beyond reasonable doubt or balance of probabilities? Or less? Is there a presumption of innocence or should there be a reverse onus, that is, once a complaint has been made and some evidence adduced, should the burden shift to the accused to disprove the allegations? Should processes be dealt with publicly, with transparency, or confidentially behind closed doors? What is the role of the institution in all this? Is it neutral or is it a party to the proceeding. And where do you find disinterested and impartial triers of fact?

And, in Rashomon-like fashion, maybe one never gets to the bottom of a complaint. What happened, what was said, what was meant. In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.

[GabrielRice]

In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.

On the contrary, while social media is certainly problematic, in this case I think it has been a powerful force to finally make some needed cultural changes regarding the power dynamics and sexual politics in the music world.

[Bach5G]

In any event, one of the least useful fora in which to deal with such allegations is social media.

On the contrary, while social media is certainly problematic, in this case I think it has been a powerful force to finally make some needed cultural changes regarding the power dynamics and sexual politics in the music world.

With respect Gabe, social media is the mob with pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers, only with keyboards.

[Burgerbob]

And because of those pitchfork mobs, change has actually happened in New York and Indiana University. Good.

[GabrielRice]

With respect Gabe, social media is the mob with pitchforks, torches, tar, and feathers.

With respect, courageous people using social media are largely responsible for finally getting multiple known sexual predators out of positions of power and influence.

I'm not saying it's all good. I and an institution I teach at have been unfairly misrepresented on social media, but in retrospect the damage done was minimal. The benefits of getting the offenses of Bill VerMeulen, Bill Pruecil, Demondrae Thurman, and others out in the open far outweigh my discomfort.

And if, in the process, I think more carefully about how I recruit students, how I program recitals, whom I ask to teach my students as guests...that also outweighs my discomfort.

[Bach5G]

Except I expect that only a few people posting about the events in question have any personal knowledge of what occurred. All they know is what they’ve read in social media.

I also wonder in some cases whether social media has made institutions dig in their heels or discouraged people from coming forward.

[GabrielRice]

Except I expect that only a few people posting about the events in question have any personal knowledge of what occurred. All they know is what they’ve read in social media.

In this case what was posted included written evidence. Obviously that's not always the case. But what you're describing is called amplifying, and it's a valuable form of support.

I also wonder in some cases whether social media has made institutions dig in their heels or discouraged people from coming forward.

All evidence I see points to the opposite effect. People (mostly but not exclusively women) who have been victimized are more empowered to tell their stories, and institutions that knew they had problems for decades - such as Rice University and the Cleveland Institute of Music - have finally acted. Some less public cases I'm familiar with have been acted on more quietly in the years since #MeToo.

----------------------------------

Now I'm going to get personal with something I've shared on facebook but not here.

I'm a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I can write that in a public forum now relatively calmly, but I can still feel my heart rate go up. The first time I ever talked about it, I literally felt like I might have a heart attack, and I was a healthy young guy in my late teens. For a long time after that, every time I talked about it I felt like I might die - and it was a reasonable feeling, because nothing would ever be the same.

That's what it's like for survivors of abuse. Nobody who has gone through it talks about it lightly. That's why we MUST start from a place of believing what they say. That's not to say that an allegation on its own is enough to fire somebody from a job...but we have to start with believing the person who is telling us something that can change their lives forever.

Vanessa can now assume that every musician she comes into contact with knows her story. Anybody could bring up this painful memory to her at any time. She took a HUGE step to go public with this, even without considering the possibilities of lawsuits. She deserves our belief and our support.

[Burgerbob]

Thanks for sharing that, Gabe. It's exactly why we need those social media posts- to make victims slowly feel safe enough to share their stories. I'll bet that story has been on Vanessa's mind nonstop since the New York fiasco came to light, and it took this long for her to come forward.

[Bach5G]

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

[GabrielRice]

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

Your point?

[Bach5G]

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

Your point?

Speaks for itself Gabe.

[GabrielRice]

Your point?

Speaks for itself Gabe.

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.

[Bach5G]

Speaks for itself Gabe.

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.

[GabrielRice]

Still not good enough. Please tell us why it matters to you and what you think she should have done differently. Do you think she should have spoken up sooner? Do you think she should have forgotten about it and let it rest because it was so long ago?

[MStarke]

If something like this happened to my children, I would want them to tell me and others to get help - and also to be able to protect others in the future. Simple as that.

Gabe, thank you for sharing your part and being so open.

Of course social media has to be handled carefully in any case. But I am pretty sure the examples that went public in the last years did not take it lightly.

Also I see this as a big reminder for all of us to be very aware of our own behaviors.

[WilliamLang]

Well, that's just an awful point to make.

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

[atopper333]

Well, that's just an awful point to make.

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

Well said and second that…it does take time for victims to speak out for a significantly varied amount of reasons. At times they have endured systematic abuse for years and finally report it, or they hold on to a single event and not disclose it for years until other trauma occurs or, like in this case, it is brought back up and reopens the original trauma.

Attitudes which pressure victims into non-disclosure are as toxic as they seem, the next usual line is to blame the victim for what happened…really hope no one goes there.

Shutting people down for their experiences is unproductive and leads to less reporting and more things kept in the dark, period. The next step in these situations should always be investigation to ensure the validity of claims, not dismissal of the victims claims or a knee jerk reaction to the potential abuser. The approach should always be measured to ensure the truth is brought forward.

[elmsandr]

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.

Aka, why I would not trust you if any incident needed to be reported in an organization you are a part of.

Cmon man, say what you mean. Own it. Have the guts to type it under your alias here.

Cheers,
Andy

[ngrinder]

“Things like what happened to me as a student at a 2007 Trombone Seminar…”

18 years ago.

Say what you mean.

If you care so much about social media dolling out justice more fairly, don't hide behind your anonymous user name and by beating around the bush.

Speaking up against a powerful, well respected member of an insular community is *hard* and carries a huge risk. Our work is based on relationships almost as much as it is on playing skill - it's no wonder it took so long to come to light for fear of significant retribution.

[LeTromboniste]

MB wrote: “Those policies are worthless if the people in charge choose to tolerate things, or if a culture of silence reigns, or when the institution is and has always been dominated by white men.”

I was with you up until the third clause. However, if asked whether I thought such incidents would happen as often in female dominated institutions, I’d have to say no. Of course, my opinion is worthless without data. Without data, it’s just questionably informed bias. Or bad logic: it may be true that all attackers are white men but not true that all white men are attackers.

Oh here we go. The "not all men" card. We all know not every single white men is an attacker, that's not the point and it's never, ever been the point. The point is that institutions that are historically consistently dominated by white men are intrinsically discriminatory and misogynistic. Not every individual white men that's part of them, the institutions themselves. They have to be. You don't consistently exclude more than half of the population without serious unchecked biases and attitudes that, purposefully or not, are discriminatory and abusive.

[Digidog]

No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.

In the end everything is political.

You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.

No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.

Simple as pie.

[tromboneVan]

*Postponed*

[Matt K]

No, it started as sexism and morphed into politics.

In the end everything is political.

You cannot separate human behaviour from the context it's in, nor can you deprive a human of his/her context, and the context inevitably comes down to politics because that's the definition of what politics is: context.

No context, no politics. Any context, any politics.

Simple as pie.

I don’t think it’s quite as simple as you’re making it out to be. You’ve just asserted them to be the same.

the art or science of government
b
: the art or science concerned with guiding or influencing governmental policy
c
: the art or science concerned with winning and holding control over a government
2
: political actions, practices, or policies
3
a
: political affairs or business
especially : competition between competing interest groups or individuals for power and leadership (as in a government)
b
: political life especially as a principal activity or profession
c
: political activities characterized by artful and often dishonest practices
4
: the political opinions or sympathies of a person
5
a
: the total complex of relations between people living in society
b
: relations or conduct in a particular area of experience especially as seen or dealt with from a political point of view

The only definition that remotely comes close to being “context” is the fifth definition and even then, I completely disagree. You don’t have to change the aggregate relationship of society to know what happened here is wrong and to make steps to affect the change. And like I said earlier, we aren’t going to change society here, but we can change our sphere of influence.

There are things that people here could do today that would make a change. I didn’t have the time to write it up yesterday but a consortium of colleges that say, all agree to review blatant, written harassment within a short time frame or be excluded would be something that could affect change today. Colleges are majority women at the moment and if they had the ability to attend a college that was, or was not, given the gravity of the problem I can’t imagine them not going to one with such a policy in place.

You don’t need to, nor will any of us influence the aggregate per se, but the aggregate is made of up small changes like that. After all, we don’t have harassment codified in the law, its institutions turning a blind eye as noted before (ignoring blatant, written harassment with no room for interpretation).

[tbdana]

It sounds like some of you still don't understand why women overwhelmingly chose the bear. And as far as institutions go, you might consider that you might be engaging in something known as "fishbowl thinking."

[GabrielRice]

I don't think it does.

Why does it matter that it took her 18 years - including now a presumably tenured position with a major symphony - to work up the courage to speak up?

Please elucidate.

I can’t explain it any better than you just have Gabe.

And still crickets

[Matt K]

Actually, occurs to me that, for once, binding arbitration might be helpful in this circumstance. Most universities already have a code of conduct in some capacity. Adding arbitration teeth to it might be enough to actually get the document to mean something.

This is something that any of you who are professors could put through faculty senate as a proposition:

BINDING ARBITRATION AGREEMENT ON SEXUAL HARASSMENT INVESTIGATIONS

This Binding Arbitration Agreement ("Agreement") is entered into between [University Name] ("University") and the undersigned student ("Student"), collectively referred to as the "Parties." This Agreement is effective as of the date of the Student’s enrollment or re-enrollment at the University.

1. PURPOSE

The purpose of this Agreement is to establish a fair and expeditious process for addressing allegations of sexual harassment involving faculty, staff, or other university-affiliated personnel. This Agreement ensures that such matters are investigated within a defined period and, where applicable, resolved through binding arbitration.

2. DEFINITIONS

Sexual Harassment: Unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature, including but not limited to, unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal, non-verbal, or physical conduct of a sexual nature that creates a hostile or intimidating environment.

Arbitration: A legally binding dispute resolution process conducted by a neutral third-party arbitrator under the rules specified in this Agreement.

Administrative Leave: Temporary removal of an accused faculty or staff member from their duties, with or without pay, pending the outcome of an investigation and arbitration.

3. INVESTIGATION PROCEDURES

The University shall initiate a formal investigation within ten (10) business days upon receiving a written complaint from any Student regarding sexual harassment by faculty or staff.

The investigation shall be conducted by an independent investigator, external to the University, to ensure impartiality.

The investigation shall be concluded within thirty (30) business days, unless exceptional circumstances require an extension, which shall not exceed an additional fifteen (15) business days.

4. INTERIM MEASURES

Any faculty or staff member accused of sexual harassment shall be placed on paid administrative leave pending the outcome of the investigation and arbitration.

The University shall take immediate measures to prevent further interaction between the complainant and the accused during the investigation.

Any student accused of harassment will be subject to interim measures in accordance with University policies and applicable laws.

5. ARBITRATION PROCESS

If a finding of sexual harassment is contested, the matter shall proceed to binding arbitration under the rules of the American Arbitration Association (AAA) or a comparable independent arbitration service.

The arbitrator shall be selected by mutual agreement between the University and the complainant.

The arbitration hearing shall take place no later than sixty (60) business days following the conclusion of the investigation.

The arbitrator shall issue a written decision within fifteen (15) business days after the conclusion of the hearing. The decision shall be final and enforceable under applicable laws.

6. REMEDIES & SANCTIONS

If the arbitrator finds that sexual harassment occurred, the University shall impose appropriate disciplinary actions, which may include termination of employment for faculty or staff.

If the arbitrator finds that no sexual harassment occurred, the accused faculty or staff member shall be reinstated to their position, if applicable.

The University shall ensure that the complainant faces no retaliation for filing a complaint or participating in the process.

7. WAIVER OF COURT PROCEEDINGS

By signing this Agreement, the Parties agree to resolve any dispute arising from a sexual harassment allegation exclusively through the arbitration process outlined above and waive their rights to pursue litigation in a court of law, except as required by applicable federal or state laws.

8. CONFIDENTIALITY

The proceedings, evidence, and outcome of any investigation or arbitration under this Agreement shall remain confidential, except where disclosure is required by law or University policy.

9. SEVERABILITY

If any provision of this Agreement is found to be unenforceable, the remainder of the Agreement shall remain in full force and effect.

10. ACKNOWLEDGMENT & SIGNATURES

By signing below, the Student and the University acknowledge that they have read, understand, and agree to be bound by the terms of this Agreement.

Student Name: ______________________Student Signature: ___________________Date: ___________

University Representative Name: ______________________University Representative Signature: ___________________Date: ___________