25%Tariffs

[Fidbone]

“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability

[Kingfan]

“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability

Among many other things - cars, clothing, gas, food, appliances...

[Fidbone]

“ What's that he says? 25% tariffs coming soon on European merchandise into the US? Sorry, no more European brass instruments for us. Ain't nobody got time for that. We'll see...” Quote from The Hornguys Facebook page

Could be disastrous for instrument choice and availability

Among many other things - cars, clothing, gas, food, appliances...

And the Big Orange baby alienating the US from Europe of course

[Matt K]

Guess I’m not ordering that Thein Contra after all

[hornbuilder]

It goes further than that. Nickel silver is not milled in the US anymore. It comes from Germany or China. Minibal ball joints, Germany. Meinlschmidt valves , Germany
The cost of simply making an instrument in the US has risen because the cost of brass has increased markedly. One example. The caps and rings I machine for my instruments have gone from a material cost of $7.00 a piece, to $17.00 a piece! That's just one part! This is going to be bad.

[tromboneVan]

Made in the USA.

[Fidbone]

Made in the USA.

Tariffs- Made in the USA.

[jacobgarchik]

Maybe we can all play Russian horns.

[hornbuilder]

Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill informed, simplistic view point.

[LeTromboniste]

Made in the USA.

That's great! Only made in the USA. So, no more new student-level instruments for schools and kids. That next Marine Band side-by-side concert with kids might have to be played on kazoos, but hey, at least it's not going to be DEI!

[chromebone]

Made in the USA.

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.

[hornbuilder]

Maybe we can all play Russian horns.

Made from materials sourced from China

[tromboneVan]

Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill.informed, simplistic view point.

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".

[tromboneVan]

Made in the USA.

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.

[Kingfan]

Had a large medicine cabinet at Home Depot in my on line shopping cart at $269, free shipping to home, for a month. I went to pull the trigger just now and it had a "price adjustment" to $359 plus $50 shipping. Where is it made? China!

[BGuttman]

tromboneVan, look up the Smoot-Hawley Act and see what the consequence was.

Also, our Dear Leader renegotiated NAFTA into his own trade act to avoid tariffs with our major trading partners. Looks like treaties have no meaning to him.

[officermayo]

Here we go again (sigh).

If you'd like to avoid the crap, check this out.

https://www.facebook.com/share/g/1F2DyDKMFW/

[LIBrassCo]

It goes further than that. Nickel silver is not milled in the US anymore. It comes from Germany or China. Minibal ball joints, Germany. Meinlschmidt valves , Germany
The cost of simply making an instrument in the US has risen because the cost of brass has increased markedly. One example. The caps and rings I machine for my instruments have gone from a material cost of $7.00 a piece, to $17.00 a piece! That's just one part! This is going to be bad.

I hope you stocked up as much as possible, I bought an absurd amount of brass and bronze as a just in case. Even so, it'll only help for a short period of time. It will indeed be real bad, likely real soon.

[LIBrassCo]

Much of the material to make a brass instrument is not produced in the USA. It doesn't matter what brand you're talking about. So saying "Made in USA", while I absolutely support that ideal, is an ill.informed, simplistic view point.

The notion that tariffs are permanent is short-sighted, ill informed, and simplistic. The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years. We are doing "reciprocal" tariffs. The comment "Made in the USA" is in relation to the fact that the point is to negotiate better trade deals, part of which involves manufacturing (in other industries as well), and sourcing materials from less exploitative sources and avoiding bad import deals, or negotiating better ones. Sourcing materials where there are not unfair trade deals, so that there is actually an incentive to make everything like we used to in the USA. The point in many instances (we are not just talking about trombones and brass instruments) is to source everything we can either in the United States, negotiate more fair trade deals, and bring manufacturing back to the United States. Have a little faith. Read a book and relax. I recommend "The Art of the Deal".

Please take off your red hat before entering the chat. Actually, please don't enter the chat at all.

[chromebone]

You’re about to get an education on how global supply chains work.

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.

Shall I remind you who negotiated the trade deals, that apparently are now not fair, back in 2020?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Agreement

[hornbuilder]

Advocate for "Made in USA" all you want, but please, go through your house and get rid of everything NOT made in USA!! Then put your money where your mouth is, replace it with product that is. Good luck with that, because your house will be empty, and VERY expensive to re-stock, even if you can find a USA made alternative.

And BTW, your MAGA hat was made in China.

[StephenK]

The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years.

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.

[hornbuilder]

Just like these Tarrifs are going to be end-consumer sales taxes. American consumers will be the ones paying the extra $$$, not the country producing the goods

Tarrifs are meant to protect a domestic industry. In many cases, there are no domestic alternatives. And the notion that somehow production of those commodities will start in the US, is just laughable. The reason why companies sent their production offshore was to take advantage of the lower labor costs and reduced regulations. Will American workers work for the same $$ per hour as the people in sweat shops in Vietnam? Bangladesh? India? China?

[BGuttman]

The USA has effectively been paying unfairly with VAT for many years.

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.

I'm not sore we in the US actually have to pay VAT. I recall being able to file some paperwork to get a VAT rebate when I brought my item into the US. Of course I was still open to US Customs Duties (but that's a different matter).

[chromebone]

You act like this is an end game and not just the opening. That tariffs are not permanent. The point is to negotiate for reciprocity. The point is fairer deals... we have been dealing with crap deals for your entire lifetime. Have a little faith.. either way we are going to SEE how it plays out. So much pessimism and condescension, but zero faith (we know). Thing is it never goes the way you think it will.. Will check back in later, let's see what happens.

Shall I remind you who negotiated the trade deals, that apparently are now not fair, back in 2020?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... _Agreement

Donald Trump, January 29, 2020:

“The USMCA is the largest, fairest, most balanced, and modern trade agreement ever achieved. There’s never been anything like it…”


“This is a colossal victory for our farmers, ranchers, energy workers, factory workers, and American workers in all 50 states and, you could almost say, beyond —…”

First rule of negotiation is, don’t negotiate against yourself.

The thing about this is, I’ll give credit where it’s due, even to him. The USMCA was actually one of the few things he got right; why he would then decide to turn around and blow it up is beyond me; but he did the same thing with operation warp speed. I guess that’ll be for forensic psychologists to figure out.

[LIBrassCo]

We don't pay VAT in the US FYI. That's straight up propaganda.

[hornbuilder]

VAT is a UK import tax. Australia has a GST of 10% placed on international imports. Any item I used to order from the US, when I lived in Australia, attracted the 10% GST, which I paid, and went into Aust Govt coffers. GST also applies to certain consumable products produced in the country.

The US does not pay VAT.

[glenp]

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.

I didn’t know much about VAT, so I read up on it:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Value-added_tax

If you don’t know about it, check out the Implementation, Examples, and Criticism sections. Very helpful.

It’s not just an end-customer sales tax. As for fairness, I haven’t formed an opinion on that. But you can read the Criticism section to see what others say.

[JTeagarden]

VAT is just end-customer sales tax. It applies to all qualifying sales, no matter which is the originating country.

I'm not sore we in the US actually have to pay VAT. I recall being able to file some paperwork to get a VAT rebate when I brought my item into the US. Of course I was still open to US Customs Duties (but that's a different matter).

We do not pay VAT on products imported from the EU at all, it’s a de facto export subsidy, but one blessed by the WTO when the issue has been raised (as it has multiple times).

[CharlieB]

Yes, imported trombones will cost 25% more. This will allow domestic makers to raise their prices to match.
The same will apply to every product imported. We will all be poorer because of the tariffs.

But there is bigger picture..........
The U.S. was able to defeat Germany in WW2 because we had a manufacturing complex that was massive, and totally under our control. Unlike Hitler, we were able to produce ships, planes, ammunition, fuel, and other war materials at incredible volumes. That was our biggest advantage, and a main reason why we are not all speaking German today.
Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.
You can't fight a war when your opponent is making your weaponry.
Tariffs are a very expensive, painful thing; but if they are the only way to restore our military security by returning our industries back to American soil, independent of foreign control, it is a pain that must be endured.
Those 76,000 factories will gradually return production to the U.S. in order to avoid the tariffs. That puts more people to work earning and spending money (and paying income taxes), and stimulating our currently sluggish economy. It has taken us many years to get ourselves into this predicament, and it will most likely take many years to get us out of it.

Ah, but this is a trombone forum.
I currently use Superslick and a water spritz on all my slides. Some do better with cream, and some like the liquid.

[LeTromboniste]

With regards to tariffs being meant to counteract VAT (which by the way is not the main stated reason), it's important to note that it is the US who chooses to not have VAT. This is because neither party can politically afford to impose one; the mere idea of taxation is repugnant for too large a chunk of the country. That is not the fault of the rest of the world, however. The US chooses to have a tax policy it knows puts it at a trade disadvantage with 150+ other countries. They can't then play victim.

We do not pay VAT on products imported from the EU at all, it’s a de facto export subsidy, but one blessed by the WTO when the issue has been raised (as it has multiple times).

VAT rebates are not an export subsidy. Quite to the contrary, VAT that is only partially-rebated effectively act as an export tax! The misconception stems from thinking the rebate is a tax break. It's not: the VAT is not a tax on the supplier in the first place, but on the customer. The supplier merely collects it and sends it to the government, minus whatever VAT they had to pay on their own supplies. Rebates compensate exporters for the impossibility of collecting VAT from their customer. In the absence of a rebate, the exporter would be on the hook for the VAT on the product, which is supposed to be paid by the customer, and so their profit on exports would be smaller than when selling the same product at the same price domestically.

Say I'm an instrument maker in Germany and I sell you a horn for $5000, tax-free.
In Germany, that horn costs $5950 because there's a 19% VAT ($950) added to the price. I would then owe the government that VAT. But I get to deduct whatever VAT I myself paid on materials, supplies and independent services. Say those cost me $2500, that means I paid $400 in VAT ($2100 before tax+19% or $400). So I owe the government the VAT I collected from my German client ($950) minus the VAT I myself paid ($400), therefore $550. So after sending that VAT to the government, I'm left with $5400, or $400 more than if I had sold it to a US customer. The tax rebate merely compensates for this difference (and usually not fully) when exporting goods.
(obviously totally invented numbers)

[Posaunus]

Made in the USA.

That's great! Only made in the USA. So, no more new student-level instruments for schools and kids. That next Marine Band side-by-side concert with kids might have to be played on kazoos, but hey, at least it's not going to be DEI!

There used to be a kazoo factory in Buffalo, New York. They made a nice product.
I bet it's long gone, and that kazoos are now made in the People's Republic.

[Burgerbob]

Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.

Everyone sources chips from Taiwan, yes. But American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

Creating a fragmented, more dangerous world just for this purpose seems pretty backwards, since we'll more likely need those weapons with no allies.

[Bach5G]

It seems unwise to let someone who has filed for bankruptcy 6 times set national economic policy.

March 3 op-ed headline in the WSJ:

“Trump Takes the Dumbest Tariff Plunge
He says the 25% levies on Mexico and Canada will begin Tuesday. Stocks fall.”

When you’ve lost the WSJ…

[chromebone]

Yes, imported trombones will cost 25% more. This will allow domestic makers to raise their prices to match.
The same will apply to every product imported. We will all be poorer because of the tariffs.

But there is bigger picture..........
The U.S. was able to defeat Germany in WW2 because we had a manufacturing complex that was massive, and totally under our control. Unlike Hitler, we were able to produce ships, planes, ammunition, fuel, and other war materials at incredible volumes. That was our biggest advantage, and a main reason why we are not all speaking German today.
Since then we have become lazy, and allowed over 76,000 of our factories to relocate overseas, leaving us militarily vulnerable. Asia is producing our warships, our military drones, our semiconductor electronics, and endless other elements essential to our national security.
You can't fight a war when your opponent is making your weaponry.
Tariffs are a very expensive, painful thing; but if they are the only way to restore our military security by returning our industries back to American soil, independent of foreign control, it is a pain that must be endured.
Those 76,000 factories will gradually return production to the U.S. in order to avoid the tariffs. That puts more people to work earning and spending money (and paying income taxes), and stimulating our currently sluggish economy. It has taken us many years to get ourselves into this predicament, and it will most likely take many years to get us out of it.

Ah, but this is a trombone forum.
I currently use Superslick and a water spritz on all my slides. Some do better with cream, and some like the liquid.

The CHIPS act, passed in 2022, was bringing chip manufacturing back to this country. So explain why the Trump administration is currently undercutting it?
https://www.reuters.com/world/us/us-chi ... 025-03-04/

As far as reestablishing supply chains and manufacturing as it was in 1940, that would take many years to do: 1940 manufacturing was 100 years in the making; it had its roots in the Industrial Revolution, which started in this country in 1840.
If it was even possible or desirable to get back to that time, tariffs would have to be in place for a very very long time before we’d get to that, and we’ll be in an all out depression before then. And tariffs alone won’t accomplish it. It will take massive government investment, just like how massive government investment is what ramped up manufacturing in WW2, and what accomplished China’s rise. I see no appetite for that kind of government investment that wound required to accomplish what Trump wants. If anything, the Tariffs are simply the lazy way out of doing the actual hard work of building manufacturing. You could make the argument it took China only 20 years to achieve its Industrial Revolution, but that is a very different history, culture and governmental system from us. I really don’t think any of us would want to live though our own version of the Cultural Revolution.

We live in a different world now, China was an agrarian backwater then, it is a major power now; going back to the 1940’s is not possible, nor desirable.

[Doug Elliott]

Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?
Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.

[Bach5G]

Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?
Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.

Also to fund tax breaks. More profits, less tax.

[CharlieB]

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.

[Burgerbob]

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.

All American warships are built here. Yes, they're behind the times, and yes they would be incapable of building a fleet like the one of 1945. But with a globalized, peaceful world, they are needed much less than before. Wait, what was that? Let's shatter alliances, make China feel free to invade Taiwan, and lose all our allies in the process. That is NOT worth bringing a small amount of domestic production back to the US.

[Posaunus]

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.

And those "Made in U.S.A." ships are loaded with [tariffed] foreign content.

[chromebone]

American warships are produced right here in the U.S. of A. No need to exaggerate that claim.

SOME ships are still built Stateside, but our Stateside shipyards are woefully behind the times, and incapable of meeting wartime production needs.

It is illegal for the US government to buy warships built in foreign countries, so please stop posting about things you don’t know anything about. Almost all warships are built here.

What is suffering is our commercial shipbuilding industry, which is almost completely destroyed because building warships is so much more profitable. No cruise ships are currently built in this country.

[RJMason]

Yeah we toast. Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he would stop all export of Nickel. I know most nickel parts are made in Germany and China but wondering if hurting our friends up north will make it even worse for industries that require nickel (auto, EV batteries, and much lower down the chain Bach LT slides lol).

[BGuttman]

There are many reasons why our manufacturing operations have gone overseas.

1. American workers demand salaries that are higher than overseas. Partly because the cost of living overseas is lower and workers can live on the lower salaries, and partly because labor is not well organized like it was in the US in the time just after World War II.

2. America has tighter pollution controls, mostly because people don't want to be poisoned by our drinking water or our air. If you were to look at the environments of some of the countries doing a lot of our manufacturing, you will find that workers endure more dangers in the workplace, and pollution from manufacturing operations generally is allowed to be either dumped on land or in "scrap" areas. Americans would never want to live next to polluting plants.

3. America is not the only source of technological advancements. There are technology hubs in many western European countries as well as Japan. Some of the countries do our manufacturing and take advantage to steal our technology (Russia and China come to mind). Note that the machines that do the imaging for the highest technology microchips are made in the Netherlands (and used in Taiwan). I believe Intel has bought one to use in the new microchip plant in Arizona.

For a long time the US government required everything for the Military to be built by only US companies. This resulted in a lot of high cost weapons systems. Around the Reagan Era the Republicans demanded that the Military source from overseas to save money. So Taiwanese electronic components go in the electronics (except for some very specialized ones). This is one reason we should be very wary of China wanting to take Taiwan.

Quite frankly, I think the manufacturing process for just about everything is highly dependent on an international supply chain. Trying to reshore all of these things may not be possible any more. And arbitrary tariffs just make the problem worse.

[Bach5G]

Yeah we toast. Ontario Premier Doug Ford said he would stop all export of Nickel. I know most nickel parts are made in Germany and China but wondering if hurting our friends up north will make it even worse for industries that require nickel (auto, EV batteries, and much lower down the chain Bach LT slides lol).

DoFo is also saying he’s cutting or tariffing electricity exports. Currently Ontario supplies electricity to New York State, Michigan, and Minnesota.

I don’t think anyone believes any of this will bring American to its knees, lack of Bach LT slides notwithstanding, but it will affect everyday Americans.

[CharlieB]

Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?
Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.
Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.

All absolutely true.
But that is the corner that we have maneuvered ourselves into.
The economic engine of our country is free enterprise companies, and we are losing them.
We can't survive on the revenue from farming, or timber, or mining. We need the profit motivated industries that we all despise as money grubbing profiteers. Are tariffs the best way to lure (coerce?) them back ?
Time will tell. Whatever happens, we consumers will be paying a big financial price for whatever national mismanagement got us into this mess of doling out trillions of dollars beyond our ability to pay.

[tromboneVan]

Made in the USA.

[CalgaryTbone]

And the Troll re-appears! Good luck living in a world without allies!

Jim Scott

[Burgerbob]

Made in the USA.

Those companies would have to move their entire supply chain to the US, which is impossible in the globalized world market.

[bigbone1]

Why did those 76,000 factories close and move overseas?
Was it for lower prices? No, it was to lower costs for more corporate profits. "America first" was never a consideration.

Prices will increase due to the tariffs. Will prices come back down after the tariffs are lifted? No, consumers will then be used to paying more, so corporate profits will increase again. That's the real endgame. "America first" was never a consideration.

Trump first is the consideration. He doesn't cares about the people.

[glenp]

I'm waiting to see the relevant docs appear that detail what exactly tariffs are being imposed.

I check the following two sites:

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/

Anyone know of other sites that would be worth checking out.